Scorsese on OUTIA

[Dust Devil]

He did have something to do with it, no?

Yeah, but that hardly makes it his movie.

[Novecento]

Leone directed the introductory scene. You will definitely be able to tell this when you watch it.

[drinkanddestroy]

Leone directed the introductory scene. You will definitely be able to tell this when you watch it.

was he the producer as well?

[stanton]

Yes, his company produced it, just like MNIN.

And he directed the first scene. But that is an ordinary scene, and even if it bears many of the Leone trademarks it is nothing special, and everybody who tried to copy the Leone style could have done it in a similar way. Damiani too.
As a Leone scene it is one of his lesser ones, whereas nearly every scene in MNIN can compete with the best of him.

There are no reports that he was involved very much in the making of A Genius, and unlike MNIN Leone apparently never claimed that this was a film he was more interested in than for the money making aspect.

A genius is also a pretty strange film for a director like Damiani, who was not a wrong choice for a comedy. It is mostly an unfunny comedy which would have needed a talented guy like E. B. Clucher to make it work. A disappointment.

[Dust Devil]

whereas nearly every scene in MNIN can compete with the best of him.

Let's just not get carried away here. We've had discussions about this before, most of us agree that's not the case. It would be nice if it was, but it isn't.

[drinkanddestroy]

Let's just not get carried away here. We've had discussions about this before, most of us agree that's not the case. It would be nice if it was, but it isn't.

hey, everyone is entitled to his opinion 

I myself had mixed feelings about MNIN. I watched it once, but I didn't really "get it." I mean, I understood the basic metaphor of Hill as the Spaghetti Western and Fonda as the Hollywood Western, but I didn't really understand it fully, cuz the only Westerns I had seen by the time I watched MNIN were Leone's and a few from Hollywood. I had never seen any non-Leone Spaghettis, or any of the Trinity films.

I subsequently read up more about MNIN, and realized I should really have watched some other Spaghettis, and the Trinitys, before watching MNIN. I have not watched MNIN a second time yet, but from what I have read, I have a newfound respect for it. I plan to watch some more Spaghettis and the Trinitys and then watch MNIN again, and I think I will be able to understand and appreciate it better.

Interestingly, OUATITW is another movie that can not be understood without prior familiarity with other Westerns. Therefore, I had a similar reaction the first time I saw OUATITW: I actually HATED it, because that was pretty much the first Westerns I had ever seen aside from the Dollars films. So I completely did not understand OUATITW, which is really a film about the Western genre.  I didn't "get it" at all, and just thought it was a terrible movie dragged on forever and ever. Even so, as I was watching it, I understood that there was a deeper metaphor that I was not missing. So I decided to research it. Then, several months later, I finally watched OUATITW it for the second time -- after having read up on it in "Something to Do With Death," and watching many Hollywood Westerns -- with the dvd commentary. And I was absolutely blown away! Needless to say, it is now, as with all of Leone's films, among my favorite movies of all-time. Viva Leone!

Btw, just so y'all understand where I am coming from: I am 26-years old, and just saw GBU (my first Leone film and pretty much my first Western) less than 2 years ago.  I became instantly obsessed with Leone and Westerns, and have spent every moment since then making up for lost time, watching Westerns and reading every word I can find about Leone.

On that note, if anyone has any good suggestions for books about Leone, please let me know. I already own all of Frayling's books (which are incredible), and I have also read a book called "The Films of Sergio Leone," by Robert C. Cumbow (which IMO is terrible). If you have suggestions for any other books or research material on Leone, please let me know!

Thanks!

[stanton]

Let's just not get carried away here. We've had discussions about this before, most of us agree that's not the case. It would be nice if it was, but it isn't.

What other people think about this is not necessarily my concern and won't change my opinion. MNIN is one of the best directed westerns ever. And I can see it in nearly every scene. There are flaws in the conception, but the mere staging of the scenes is superb.
Look at the simple shot when Fonda leaves the ferry rides up a small hill and spots from there the "fishing" Hill down at the river. That's a magnificent shot. I can find this way of shooting often by Leone and Corbucci, but only rarely in other SWs.

[Dust Devil]

What other people think about this is not necessarily my concern and won't change my opinion.

Hell, haha, this is my sort of answer. Same here, but what I wanted to say is that many of us here do consider it to be connected with Leone, but at the same time have to bow down to the presented facts - MNIN just doesn't have that feeling of perpetual brilliance that all of his movies, save perhaps COR, have. DVD - this movie was made to be put on one, so that one doesn't have to watch all those boring scenes when the concept and character over-indulging drown the direction of the story and the message down.

MNIN is one of the best directed westerns ever. And I can see it in nearly every scene. There are flaws in the conception, but the mere staging of the scenes is superb.
Look at the simple shot when Fonda leaves the ferry rides up a small hill and spots from there the "fishing" Hill down at the river. That's a magnificent shot. I can find this way of shooting often by Leone and Corbucci, but only rarely in other SWs.

A Western very dear to me too. Watched it as a kid numerous times. Still, for me it is not his movie cause of what presented above.

Yes, that is a great scene, but say, what about the scenes when Nobody's in town? Those are Barboni scenes, not Leone scenes, as much as I like both directors for what they offered. The movies he directed don't have amplitudes that are that drastic.

Finally, Leone didn't strike me as someone who liked sharing his ideas and merits with anybody else. I'm thinking if MNIN was indeed his movie, he would have been credited as the director. Make no mistake about it.

[drinkanddestroy]

Finally, Leone didn't strike me as someone who liked sharing his ideas and merits with anybody else. I'm thinking if MNIN was indeed his movie, he would have been credited as the director. Make no mistake about it.

I'm not so sure about that. One of the reasons Peter Bogdanovich didn't work out as director of DYS (according to Frayling) is that Leone wanted Bogdanovich to shoot the movie Leone-style (eg. tight close-ups) but Bogdanovich wasn't interested in shooting a Leone film, he wanted to do it his own way.

So it would seem that rather than refusing to share his ideas, Leone was actually quite eager to have movies he was involved with being filmed Leone-style.

("Something to do with Death" indeed describes how Leone would often not give full credit to some of those who worked on the films,  but I do not think that he refrained from sharing his directing ideas with those who directed films he produced)

[Groggy]

hey, everyone is entitled to his opinion 

I myself had mixed feelings about MNIN. I watched it once, but I didn't really "get it." I mean, I understood the basic metaphor of Hill as the Spaghetti Western and Fonda as the Hollywood Western, but I didn't really understand it fully, cuz the only Westerns I had seen by the time I watched MNIN were Leone's and a few from Hollywood. I had never seen any non-Leone Spaghettis, or any of the Trinity films.

I subsequently read up more about MNIN, and realized I should really have watched some other Spaghettis, and the Trinitys, before watching MNIN. I have not watched MNIN a second time yet, but from what I have read, I have a newfound respect for it. I plan to watch some more Spaghettis and the Trinitys and then watch MNIN again, and I think I will be able to understand and appreciate it better.

I've seen MNIN three times now and still think it's mediocre.

[Dust Devil]

I'm not so sure about that. One of the reasons Peter Bogdanovich didn't work out as director of DYS (according to Frayling) is that Leone wanted Bogdanovich to shoot the movie Leone-style (eg. tight close-ups) but Bogdanovich wasn't interested in shooting a Leone film, he wanted to do it his own way.

So it would seem that rather than refusing to share his ideas, Leone was actually quite eager to have movies he was involved with being filmed Leone-style.

("Something to do with Death" indeed describes how Leone would often not give full credit to some of those who worked on the films,  but I do not think that he refrained from sharing his directing ideas with those who directed films he produced)

It is my personal persuasion the reason behind those possibilities was that SL wanted to see if the only reason for his movies/vision not reaching the audience in the US was himself. Just my two cents.

[Dust Devil]

In fact, all stories aside, nobody directed the movies he wanted to direct himself. Nobody was faster. That's what I'm sayin'.

[drinkanddestroy]

It is my personal persuasion the reason behind those possibilities was that SL wanted to see if the only reason for his movies/vision not reaching the audience in the US was himself. Just my two cents.

while all his post-Dollars films indeed did not do well in America, the Dollars trilogy actually did very, very well in America; (not necessarily with the critics, but with audiences they made er... fistfuls of dollars 

[Dust Devil]

while all his post-Dollars films indeed did not do well in America, the Dollars trilogy actually did very, very well in America; (not necessarily with the critics, but with audiences they made er... fistfuls of dollars 

Well I couldn't agree with this, but even if so - OUATITW was the turning point.

[stanton]

Compared to Hollywood westerns of these years the Dollar trilogy was a success in the US, but not a very great one (If the box office data in the Hardy book is true).
Even a half baked film like The Cheyenne Social Club made more money than the first 2. Hang 'em High made more money than the trilogy films, even if it is half as attractive as those. The awful Bandolero also topped the first 2.
In the inflation adjusted list no Leone is amongst the first 50 most successful westerns.

According to Frayling OuTW made about a million. That's not impressive, but also not that bad for an European western.