OUATIA location

[rexlic]

Hi!  New here, and hope I can add a piece of trivia to this great site. 

In the scene in OUATIA where Max greets Noodles coming out prison (the first appearance chronologically of the characters as adults), the prison location has changed.  Judging by the shot of the boys standing across the street as Noodles enters prison in the black maria, it appears to be set in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn.  The later scene is clearly set elsewhere, and having lived in the Long Island City section of Queens, New York, for 14 years, I can tell you their reunion is set on the side street of Court Square next to the landmarked Queens County Courthouse.  I'm not set up currently to take or post pictures, but you can believe me on this one (the Queensborough/59th St. Bridge is visible through the windshield of the hearse, a view now blocked by the looming CitiBank skyscraper; the "Sternberger's" warehouse present in the reverse shots is now the Citi-Wide storage building).  The courthouse has been used in other movies (of course, none presently come to mind), as well as being the setting for a short-lived Oliver Platt/Anabella Sciorra TV show called "Queens Supreme."

Haven't plowed through all the location posts yet, but I hope this gets me off to a good start here.

[dave jenkins]

Welcome, and thank you. My understanding, based on what you've told us, is that Noodles gets moved during his incarceration. He goes in to prison in Brooklyn, then before he's released, is transfered to Queens. The reason could be mundane or not, we just don't know.

[rexlic]

Thanks for the response, DJ/ME. 

I guess it should be added that my contribution is a tribute of a kind to the medium of the DVD.  I mean, I just saw OUATIA at MOMA (the Museum of Modern Art in New York; couldn't resist the acronym-mania) in February, and didn't catch that then.  There's something about watching a DVD (in my case on a laptop) and being able to instantly freeze or go back that fosters such attention to detail.

And now that I'm on the case, I'll try to work on other OUATIA locations as well.  As a long-time NYC cabbie, I've become obsessed with spotting NYC locations on TV and in movies, and will work on the other prison site next.

By the by, there's a strange little bit that's run more than a few times on New York City's own government-owned cable station.  It's a five-ten minute clip of Scott Tiler and Rusty Jacobs, as adults, revisiting the site of the Bugsy/Dominic death scene in the DUMBO section of Brooklyn.  Anybody know anything else about this (I've never managed to tape the damn thing; it's never scheduled, just used as late night filler)?

[cigar joe]

rexlic, howdy neighbor!

I grew up in Astoria and Long Island City, used to ride the old RR now I think its the N train through Queensborough Plazato Manhattan as a kid, I though that looked somewhat familiar, nice information, welcome to the board!

[drinkanddestroy]

Welcome, and thank you. My understanding, based on what you've told us, is that Noodles gets moved during his incarceration. He goes in to prison in Brooklyn, then before he's released, is transferred to Queens. The reason could be mundane or not, we just don't know.

The fact that the place Noodles enters in the paddy wagon is not the same place Maxie picks him up from years later never bothered me.

Firstly, when we see Noodles in the paddy wagon, I do not believe that is as he was being led away to prison to start his sentence (ie. that would be after a trial or a guilty plea, which would be at least a few weeks after the day he killed Bugsy). I always assumed that that scene o is immediately after he is arrested, and he is being taken into a county jail (ie. as a holding cell). Remember, as we see the gang waving to him, Fat Moe comes running up to join them. This would fit very well with my belief that this scene is supposed to take place upon Noodles's arrest immediately after killing Bugsy, cuz Moe wasn't with the gang during that incident; someone must have informed him Noodles was arrested so he ran there to meet the gang, and reached them just as Noodles was going through the big doors in the paddy wagon. However, if this scene were in fact of Noodles beginning his prison sentence, (say, immediately after a formal sentencing by a judge), why would Moe not have been together with the gang at the sentencing?


 Secondly, my understanding is that there are no prisons in New York City, only jails. (I have no idea if things were the same in the 1920's, but I am pretty sure that is the case now).Noodles would have served his 12-year sentence in a state prison, which could not have been in New York City. As I mentioned above, I do not believe that the scene of him in the paddy wagon is to begin his prison sentence, so I am not concerned about that.
However, assuming the place Max picks up Noodles in the hearse is indeed supposed to be in NYC, then it can't be outside the prison. So perhaps after Noodles was released from prison, he was transferred for a brief period to a county jail or police station holding cell until he was picked up?

So I believe that when we see the gang waving goodbye to the young Noodles in the paddy wagon, that was immediately upon Noodles's arrest, as he is being led away to the county jail/police station for holding/processing/awaiting trial etc.  Then when the adult Max picks up Noodles 12 years later, it is outside a police station or county jail or some other "transfer facility" where he was held briefly upon his release from state prison. Both scenes take place outside different county jails in New York City, and none take place outside the prison where Noodles actually served his sentence.

[drinkanddestroy]

Just noticed this still of Noodles outside the prison in Queens.  The sign is difficult to read but it's meant to be Clinton State prison.

well I am nearly 100% sure there are no state prisons in New York City. (don't know if there were in the 1930's....)

[cigar joe]

The original State prison in 1797 was called Newgate and was located in New York City.

Clinton is what everyone here in NY calls Dannemora, its way way upstate near the Canadian border, here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Correctional_Facility

[drinkanddestroy]

Thanks for the link and the extra details, cigar joe.  Some saw it as a flaw that Max picked up Noodles in the daytime but arrived at Fat Moe's in the dark. Never saw it as a flaw myself.

Yeah, I was unsure about that. When Max picks up Noodles I would say it is at least half an hour before sunset. In New York City, it is fully dark at approx. 45 minutes after sunset. That means that from the moment Max picks up Noodles till we see them entering Fat Moe's, I think has to be a minimum of about 75 minutes. But it doesn't take nearly that long to drive from the Queensboro Bridge to the Lower East Side (even in NYC traffic!)

I don't think that they made any stops along the way; after all, Noodles is wearing the same clothing when they enter Fat Moe's as when Maxie picks him up; and I don't know if they would make any "business" stops with the hooker in the car; besides, Noodles was probably eager to get back home and meet his friends. Also, when they get outta the car, Max asks Noodles if he indeed banged the hooker in the back; if they had made stops along the way, wouldn't he have asked Noodles that earlier? (or was Max worried about being polite to the girl and not asking in her presence?) So IMO they went straight from the prison to Fat Moe's. I think that would make the timing of nightfall a bit off. (truth is, with OUATIA you never really know, cuz there could always be a deleted scene...  )

[drinkanddestroy]

The original State prison in 1797 was called Newgate and was located in New York City.

Clinton is what everyone here in NY calls Dannemora, its way way upstate near the Canadian border, here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Correctional_Facility

Newgate prison in NYC was long gone by the 1930's.

While I am nearly certain that there are no state prisons in NYC today, I can't be sure it was the same way in the 1930's. But if it was, then it was a mistake to have Maxie pick up Noodles in Queens.

Initially, I wondered if Max perhaps doesn't actually pick Noodles up outside the prison where he served his sentence; rather, it's in a county jail or some place where he was being temporarily held and processed upon completion of his prison sentence... But now that we have seen that the inscription does say that it is a state prison, I'd really be interested to know whether there indeed were state prisons in NYC during the 1930's, or whether this was a mistake....

[cigar joe]

Mistake if NYC.

[drinkanddestroy]

another thing I just noticed when watching this scene again: When Maxie shows Noodles the hearse, Noodles says "yeah, my mother wrote me you was in the body-snatching business," Maxie proceeds to tell Noodles that they are all in the funeral business together as a cover. So Max and the gang never told Noodles about the funeral business in person; this would indicate that Max and the gang didn't visit Noodles during his incarceration. Doesn't it seem weird that as close as the gang was, they would not have visited him while he was serving a 12-year  prison sentence? One possible answer I was thinking of is that maybe they indeed visited Noodles in priosn, but not since they began the funeral business? It's hard to know how long that would be, but from the way Max speaks of how its a good cover and pays well, it seems they are in it for a little while. Also, Noodles gives Max a heartfelt thanks for taking care of his family while he was in prison, (and Max replies "forget about it... it's your money," ie. he was giving Noodles's family [part of] Noodles's share of the gang's earnings). From the way the conversation goes, it seems that this is the first time that Noodles is was able to thank Max in person. The indication I got is that this is the first time Max has seen Noodles either since he began his prison sentence, or at least in a very, very long time. This seems mighty strange to me, considering how close the gang was (and considering that Max knew when to pick up Noodles from prison)....


The answer I was thinking of is that maybe Max and the gang indeed visited Noodles while in prison, but never spoke business with him, cuz they could only talk with those telephones through a partition, and those conversations are recorded by the prison... I would be really interested to know if anyone knows how private prison visits/conversations were in the 1920's & early 30's.

Otherwise, does anyone have an explanation as to why it seems that the gang hasn't visited Noodles during his incarceration?

[Dust Devil]

Or they were afraid of getting caught.