Sergio Leone Web Board
Other/Miscellaneous => Off-Topic Discussion => Topic started by: mike siegel on December 06, 2021, 09:11:10 AM
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Released in 1983, the final release version of the film was heavily altered by the producers.
Peckinpah owned a negative of his own director's cut. Peckinpah's friend and archivist
Don Hyde made a 35mm interlok print from that negative back in 1983 which was never
shown in the last 35 years. It is the only print in existence, the whereabouts of the negative is unknown.
In 2002 a very bad video copy of this cut (minus titles) based on a BetaCam tape was included
on the Anchor Bay DVD.
A year ago Don had decided to give me his print, to make Peckinpah's version better known.
This will happen now. I made a 2K scan of the print (which will hopefully receive a full
frame-to-frame restoration in the future) as well as a 2K scan of my own theatrical release print.
An upcoming Blu-ray release will therefore include three versions of THE OSTERMAN WEEKEND.
And new supplements of course. For instance a 64 minute long full comparison video - I was
quite surprised regarding the high amount of differences between both versions:
(https://up.picr.de/42580791gf.jpg)
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Wow! I never thought this would happen. Peckinpah?s version is so much better. I remember posting about exactly why on the old Sam Peckinpah forum.
I cannot wait to see this!
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It is indeed a different film and so much better. Before I did this now I never fully realised, I guess I had watched
that video copy only once back then, suffering too much (quality) to enjoy it...
(https://up.picr.de/42585488kw.png)
(https://up.picr.de/42585489zb.png)
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I hated Osterman in the theater, but would be very interested in watching a better cut of the film. I don't think even Peckinpah at his best, though, could redeem a Robert Ludlum novel.
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Actually he did, as the film is much more intelligent than the forgettable novel. And different enough as far as I remember.
This film could have become so much better, and one main problem is the action. Well made in itself, but wrong for that film. The only time that action in a Peckinpah film works against the film.
Of course the main Problem was that Peckinpah was long finished, and nobody wanted him to do a good film, maybe not even Peckinpah himself.
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Just found what I wrote over on the Sam Peckinpah forum back in 2014:
One thing that I really don't understand is why when Sam's cut was re-edited, they completely destroyed one of the best sequences of the movie. In Sam's version, the main characters are introduced in a brilliant sequence that cross-cuts between Tanner's three friends and Tanner on his TV show. In the re-edited version, this cross-cutting is removed for a more chronological sequence that is simply boring by comparison (and also removes the introduction of Chris Sarandon's character). It's mind-boggling to me how anyone could have thought the re-edited version better and more likely to appeal to the public.
The theatrical version removes that clever cut [at the end] where we see Fasset raising his gun on the screen and we expect to cut to Tanner being at the door about to shoot him, but instead we cut to reality with Tanner opening the door to find his wife and kid
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Seeing that Don Hyde was Peckinpah?s archvist, could he shed any light on that ?pre-release? cut of Convoy that some lucky folks were able to see back in the day?
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I would prefer a 180 min cut of Major Dundee with some bloody slo mo ...
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Seeing that Don Hyde was Peckinpah?s archvist, could he shed any light on that ?pre-release? cut of Convoy that some lucky folks were able to see back in the day?
Not really. But at least we now have the Japanese premiere cut, which is 7 minutes longer...
And in all those years I could not clarify why the OSTERMAN agent would shoot himself:
(https://up.picr.de/42608565lu.jpg)
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Not really. But at least we now have the Japanese premiere cut, which is 7 minutes longer...
From Convoy or from Osterman?
Convoy I think. any plans for that version? And what's new in it?
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CONVOY was released two or three years ago in JAPAN. I co-produced for KING RECORD (Cross Of Iron too):
(https://up.picr.de/42611292rl.jpg)
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Not really. But at least we now have the Japanese premiere cut, which is 7 minutes longer...
Wow, I had no idea. The specs listed on Amazon Japan seem to list 5 rather than 7 mins longer. Is there anything substantial in those extra minutes? Unfortunately, it seems to be out of print already.
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Yes, 5 Min.
I wrote a long piece about it (and OSTERMAN) for one of the next CINEMA RETRO issues...
PS: Sam's OSTERMAN director's Cut is NOT the preview cut (Videotape / old DVD).
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Yes, 5 Min.
I wrote a long piece about it (and OSTERMAN) for one of the next CINEMA RETRO issues...
Nice. I?ll look out for it.
It?s a shame that Japanese Blu-ray is totally OOP. I can?t even find anyone selling used copies. Presumably it was a very limited print run? Having said that, does the 5 minutes add anything of real worth? Or will I have to wait to see the Cinema Retro article for an answer to that?
PS: Sam's OSTERMAN director's Cut is NOT the preview cut (Videotape / old DVD).
Wait, you mean the one on the old DVD is not the same as the cut you received? How are they different?
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Nice. I?ll look out for it.
It?s a shame that Japanese Blu-ray is totally OOP. I can?t even find anyone selling used copies. Presumably it was a very limited print run? Having said that, does the 5 minutes add anything of real worth? Or will I have to wait to see the Cinema Retro article for an answer to that?
Wait, you mean the one on the old DVD is not the same as the cut you received? How are they different?
Again, the Director's Cut I just finished working on is Sam's Final Cut. The preview cut is a preview cut. He was dismissed
and made his changes nevertheless - but nobody ever saw his Final Cut. Until now...
CONVOY: there are some nice moments. I do not have the time to write a lot here, I work 50 hrs a week
on Peckinpah, right until x-mas... RETRO PREVIEW:
(JAP 15) 1:35:58 To hell with?em (7:02)
After the dramatic dialogue beween Dirty Lyle and the Rubber Duck in the destroyed Alvarez? jail, the Duck is suddenly smiling, checking out the damage: "To hell with them if they can?t take a joke, right?". A good moment.
(JAP 16) 1:37:40 Road songs (1:58:10)
The longest 'missing' sequence: on their way to Mexico, the truckers are singing songs. It starts with a laid-over verse from Al Martino?s song 'Spanish Eyes', then we hear and see Kristofferson singing a weird version of 'La Adelita', that famous song from the Mexican revolution! Next comes Madge Sinclair performing 'I don?t know why I love you like I do', a 1940?s classic most prominently recorded by Frank Sinatra and, later, Dean Martin. Everybody is in great spirits and Melissa takes pictures of Rubber Duck. The fourth song we hear is the famous 1939 hit 'South of the Border'. The sequence ends with everybody singing all over the place and a trucker laughing: "Oh, what an experience!". (in the final cut we only hear the 'Jesus freaks', in reality Kristofferson?s band, singing 'Shall we gather at the river'.)
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Again, the Director's Cut I just finished working on is Sam's Final Cut. The preview cut is a preview cut. He was dismissed
and made his changes nevertheless - but nobody ever saw his Final Cut. Until now. His editor made a negative for Sam
with all the changes after the preview and then Sam stored the negative (lost by now...). His friend Don made
a print, using his own money. The only print in the world. I have it now...
CONVOY: there are some nice moments. I do not have the time to write a lot here, I work 50 hrs a week
on Peckinpah, right until x-mas... RETRO PREVIEW:
(JAP 15) 1:35:58 To hell with?em (7:02)
After the dramatic dialogue beween Dirty Lyle and the Rubber Duck in the destroyed Alvarez? jail, the Duck is suddenly smiling, checking out the damage: "To hell with them if they can?t take a joke, right?". A good moment.
(JAP 16) 1:37:40 Road songs (1:58:10)
The longest 'missing' sequence: on their way to Mexico, the truckers are singing songs. It starts with a laid-over verse from Al Martino?s song 'Spanish Eyes', then we hear and see Kristofferson singing a weird version of 'La Adelita', that famous song from the Mexican revolution! Next comes Madge Sinclair performing 'I don?t know why I love you like I do', a 1940?s classic most prominently recorded by Frank Sinatra and, later, Dean Martin. Everybody is in great spirits and Melissa takes pictures of Rubber Duck. The fourth song we hear is the famous 1939 hit 'South of the Border'. The sequence ends with everybody singing all over the place and a trucker laughing: "Oh, what an experience!". (in the final cut we only hear the 'Jesus freaks', in reality Kristofferson?s band, singing 'Shall we gather at the river'.)
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I see. So we have the theatrical cut, the preview cut (bad quality), and now the Peckinpah cut. So excited to see it.
That cinema retro article sounds like it will be great.
As for Convoy, I?m surprised no other editions abroad offered that as an optional extended cut. Perhaps it?s a licensing issue? I did find a copy of it for sale on a Japanese auction site. It was only 25,000 yen :o (I?ll let you do the currency conversion).
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The japanische war die letzte V? bisher, alle anderen sind ja schon drau?en... Au?erdem wei? das bisher ja kaum jemand...
(https://up.picr.de/42644739jp.jpg)
(https://up.picr.de/42644741qd.jpg)
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Looks great.
That 1.60:1 aspect ratio is interesting.
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Sometimes I do stuff that only makes sense to me ;D.
(this master is not fully restored yet. If this happens in the future it will be 1:1,66)
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Mike, you should have given us a heads up that this was released in Australia already!
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I think if someone was interested, they could do have done their own homework :). It was wildly promoted... Please, don't make me
responsible for people's shopping lists ;D.
Not sure there was any interest here anyway.
By the way, it is already out of print. There are still online dealers
who have some left, but who knows for how long.
As for other countries releasing my Osterman package, it looks
rather bad right now (complicated rights situation, Osterman was an Indie production)
nice podcast about the release:
https://open.spotify.com/show/4KctRsnasXNeXjjcfC5VcK
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Yes, they have it on Amazon.com.au still. Shipping internationally can be a challenge though. I?m fortunate to have family over there.
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And in all those years I could not clarify why the OSTERMAN agent would shoot himself
Just watched your doc on the disc. So it?s still a mystery eh?
The directors cut was at least as good as I remember the preview cut being?and probably better (haven?t watched it in a while). Far better than the terrible theatrical cut. I still need to watch your side by side comparison of the directors versus theatrical ones.
Thanks so much for sharing this with the world!
By the way, how about suggesting to Imprint that they release the Japanese version of convoy. I?m still trying to get my hands on that and so sad I missed it. It occasionally pops up on Japanese auction sites but at unbelievably ridiculous prices.
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Will need to pick up a copy:
(https://cinemaretro.com/uploads/RETRO54300.jpg)
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Thanks so much for sharing this with the world!
By the way, how about suggesting to Imprint that they release the Japanese version of convoy. I?m still trying to get my hands on that and so sad I missed it. It occasionally pops up on Japanese auction sites but at unbelievably ridiculous prices.
Thank you too!
Looks like we will collaborate on more Peckinpah titles.
Of course I will try... but dealing with Japan is out of the ordinary :)
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It would be great if Imprint could release the Japanese version of Convoy and also Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid. I actually emailed them about Convoy but received no response.
They seem to have knack for securing rights to things other companies haven?t released. Good idea for a niche label. I recently pre-ordered Kurosawa?s Dersu Uzala from them. Hoping for a nice transfer.
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IMPRINT: more will come. But as usual I never leak details, it's up to the labels to announce releases (that's also why the almost
never answer to emails in detail - 5 minutes later it would be all over the internet...)
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Also something for Roland Joff? fans coming from Imprint:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ4OF53fTJc
?Fat man and little boy? is not without flaws, but still grossly underrated. The title can?t have helped. Reminds me of Friedkin?s ?Sorcerer?. The marketing departments must have been insane in both cases. ?City of Joy? has some cringeworthy moments, but is touching. ?The Mission? and ?The Killing Fields? speak for themselves.
Incidentally, Morricone scored all but ?The Killing Fields?.
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my two favorite films of the 80s: OUATIA and KILLING FIELDS ;D
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So what?s all this about an alternative cut of The Killer Elite:
https://viavision.com.au/shop/the-killer-elite-1975-imprint-collection-192/
Separately, I will definitely be buying this:
https://viavision.com.au/shop/burn-queimada-1969-imprint-collection-194/
Plus, my copy of Dersu Uzala arrived a couple of days ago. Looking forward to checking it out.
Imprint is rapidly becoming one of my favorite labels
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So what?s all this about an alternative cut of The Killer Elite:
https://viavision.com.au/shop/the-killer-elite-1975-imprint-collection-192/
I?m guessing this might be the shorter theatrical version I have on my French disc. The US release only had the longer cut (I never watch the shorter one anyway), but it also came with ?Noon Wine?, which was nice!
Or Imprint have uncovered something else ?
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Hmmm, the plot thickens:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=20508727&postcount=111
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Will need to pick up a copy:
(https://cinemaretro.com/uploads/RETRO54300.jpg)
Finally got my hands on a copy.
I enjoyed your Convoy and Osterman articles on the rediscovered scenes/cuts really informative, Mike!
Of course, now I just want someone?Imprint, are you reading this??to release the Japanese cut of Convoy again.
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Thanks !!
IMPRINT does not have to read here,
they will do all upcoming Peckinpah boxes with me anyway.
I have few "ultimate" releases planned, just knock on wood...
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So what?s all this about an alternative cut of The Killer Elite
Looks like an article on the cinema retro site has clarified the matter:
The first disc presents the ?original? theatrical version in a 1080p high definition transfer from MGM that runs 2 hours and 3 minutes, and includes a ton of bonus features, most notable of which is a fabulous audio commentary by Peckinpah expert Mike Siegel. He provides some terrific revelations about the film and its production and shows a real appreciation of Peckinpah?s work. Siegel indicates that Sam, at Bo Hopkins? suggestion, filmed an alternate ?absurdist? ending in which Locken and Mac find Miller alive and well aboard the sailboat, after having been seen getting shot to pieces. In an interview with Siegel, Hopkins confirms that bit of info, and even shows some footage of the scene that was finally excised by the bosses at United Artists, who just didn?t get it. In a separate commentary ported over from a previous Twilight Time release, Garner Simmons and Paul Seydor, two film historians whom I lovingly refer to as the Peckinpah Peckerwoods, and the late Nick Redman, make the assertion that the complete film, with the Jerome Miller ?resurrection? scene had one showing in Northern California and has never been seen again.
Well, I beg to differ with that statement. Fellow Cinema Retro reviewer Fred Blosser and I saw The Killer Elite the night it opened in December 19, 1975 at a local theater in northern Virginia. The scene in question was definitely included. Fred states that he has also seen it in the occasional TV broadcast of the film. So, despite statements made to the contrary, there probably is at least one copy of the unexpurgated ?The Killer Elite? out there somewhere. JEROME MILLER LIVES!
Mike, after your achievements with the Osterman Weekend, here?s your next challenge. Unearthing the intact scene!
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I'm always looking out for stuff like this of course. Alternative TV-versions etc. No luck so far.
But 2023/2024 will be superb years regarding Peckinpah releases. I am working on big stuff. Wish I could
talk about it, but I can't of course. I never reveal anything before the labels make the announcement...
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I'm always looking out for stuff like this of course. Alternative TV-versions etc. No luck so far.
But 2023/2024 will be superb years regarding Peckinpah releases. I am working on big stuff. Wish I could
talk about it, but I can't of course. I never reveal anything before the labels make the announcement...
We don't always see label announcements, so if you'd be good enough, when they make one, copy it and add it here.
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I'm always looking out for stuff like this of course. Alternative TV-versions etc. No luck so far.
But 2023/2024 will be superb years regarding Peckinpah releases. I am working on big stuff. Wish I could
talk about it, but I can't of course. I never reveal anything before the labels make the announcement...
Seriously looking forward to it!
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Without giving too much away, could you possibly just tell me if I?m wasting my time periodically browsing Japanese auction sites to pick up a certain OOP disc ?
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Without giving too much away, could you possibly just tell me if I?m wasting my time periodically browsing Japanese auction sites to pick up a certain OOP disc ?
Yes, I'd rather spend the time watching Marx Brothers films....
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Nice 😊