Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In The West => Topic started by: nighteagle on March 07, 2003, 10:43:04 AM

Title: Harmonica`s scar
Post by: nighteagle on March 07, 2003, 10:43:04 AM
Did you notice that Harmonica has a scar on his face when he meets Jill in the farm (before they go to the well)?
Stefanelli told me: after Harmonica "manipulated" the thick chinese spy in the chinese laundry (laundry press), Leone shot a sequence where Frank and his men get Bronson, beat him up, put his face through the iron -fenced foot board of a bed, so that Bronson´s face sticks out through the iron bars, and repeatedly beat on his face. He is then released, but his face shows the signs of punching. Leone did not
include this scene in the final version, but  Bronson kept the scar in the following scenes, obviously.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: Halis on March 07, 2003, 04:37:08 PM
In Professor Christopher Frayling's book on Spaghetti Westerns, this missing scene is detailed, along with all the other OUATITW cuts.
What is interesting is that Leone decided to cut this scene whilst he was still shooting and tranferred some of the dialogue from this scene into a different scene that actually does appear in the movie. Consequently, if they ever found the rushes, it would be impossible to restore this scene without it making nonsense of the plot.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: shorty larsen on March 10, 2003, 02:34:23 PM
It thing Leone was wright in not including this scene. It would have shown us an Harmonica not so "invincible" or "untouchable".

I know that Harmonica was shot in the very first scene of the movie. But to be shot is not the same thing that to be beated.

I can stand a scene in wich Harmonica is shot in a duel, even if he have 3 rivals in front of him. But I'm not prepared to see Harmonica humillated by three guys beating him, if you know what I mean.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: Hippieoddball1 on April 19, 2003, 06:43:13 PM
Yeah but clint is beaten up badly in both afod and fafdm and then comes back and kills them all at the end. It shows him as invincible and strong and that he has the last laugh, and no matter what they do to him he's still quicker on the draw and more dangerous.
I actually thought the scene was cut because of time because surely Leone would have gone and reshot the scene without the bruises rather than having a huge blip in continuity. I think theres something in 'Something to do with death' about it being cut from the film because of time. Because after all Paramount wanted a short western and leone came back with over 3 hours. I could be wrong though.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: shorty larsen on April 20, 2003, 06:54:03 AM
I think Clint has not the same image than Bronson.

Clint's character is often very amusing, he has this funny side who makes that we can't take him too seriously.

Instead, Bronson's character is really "untouchable". He has only one thing in mind: REVENGE. There's no humour in Bronson's character, even if he's ironic sometime. Not only that, I also think that Bronson's character has a "tragic" side (in the sense of greek tragedy) which is not present in Eastwood.

So I don't mind to see Clint beated, but I couldn't stand to see Harmonica beated.

I think it's not fair to make a comparison between Clint's character and Bronson's one
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: nighteagle on May 10, 2003, 09:52:52 AM
Hippieoddball is right. Benito Stefanelli told me once that the
Bronson beating - up scene was cut because of time overlength of the movie
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: Hippieoddball1 on May 10, 2003, 11:01:23 AM
Cheers mate.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: Halis on May 10, 2003, 04:47:49 PM
Nighteagle, I believe that Stefanelli is wrong. According to Prof Frayling's Spaghetti western book, Leone decided to cut that scene whilst filming, and took some of the dialogue from it to insert into other scenes that he was currently writing.
The beating scene could not be restored to the movie because then you would have duplicated dialogue.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: nighteagle on May 11, 2003, 11:29:49 AM
Thanks Halis,
maybe Benito was not remembering too well, after 30 years.
When I  interviewed Stefanelli  (see my latest topic post) I also noticed that he had some
uncertainties in remembering the cast of some films for example, but that´s understandable, as he made so many movies.
Anyway, Frayling may be correct in such a case.
Saludos, amigo!
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: Halis on May 11, 2003, 03:29:55 PM
Mr Stefanelli has been in so many films over such a long period, that it is not surprising that he may have mis-remembered what happened, or indeed heard something on set that wasn't accurate. And as a stuntman/actor, I bet he often made movies back to back or simultaneously, so remembering casts or mixing movies up would be very easy to do.

As to Prof Frayling, one of the good things about his other book, the biography of Sergio Leone, is that where he has received several versions of the same story he does tell all the versions, so that the reader can make up his own mind about who to believe. For instance, there are three different stories as to how the poncho in FOD came about. Although I guess in that instance you are dealing with people's egos in claiming they had a bigger hand in things than was actually the case.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: train man on June 15, 2003, 06:53:58 PM
It thing Leone was wright in not including this scene. It would have shown us an Harmonica not so "invincible" or "untouchable".

I know that Harmonica was shot in the very first scene of the movie. But to be shot is not the same thing that to be beated.

I can stand a scene in wich Harmonica is shot in a duel, even if he have 3 rivals in front of him. But I'm not prepared to see Harmonica humillated by three guys beating him, if you know what I mean.
[/q easy..... too much knowledge confuses. the scar is easily explainsd consistently as it stands.Jill shot at Harmonica in the dark the bullet creaing his cheek.uote]
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: Hey Blondie on June 16, 2003, 06:29:20 PM
I think he may have cut the scene out so there wouldn't be any connections between The Man with No Name and Harmonica.

Remember that the role of Harmonica was originally written with Eastwood in mind. Whatever were the original plans for the film is unknown to me but since Harmonica already is Eastwood-ish and since OUATITW is like an epic version of the Dollar Trilogy I think Leone didn't want to make more connections.  
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: Jupa on January 02, 2004, 04:42:35 AM
It thing Leone was wright in not including this scene. It would have shown us an Harmonica not so "invincible" or "untouchable".

I know that Harmonica was shot in the very first scene of the movie. But to be shot is not the same thing that to be beated.

I can stand a scene in wich Harmonica is shot in a duel, even if he have 3 rivals in front of him. But I'm not prepared to see Harmonica humillated by three guys beating him, if you know what I mean.

My thoughts exactly.I've also always been of the opinion that the beat-up scene would have ruined Bronson's character in part,because Harmonica would have appeared humiliated and "not so tough" after that.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: Jupa on January 02, 2004, 04:50:41 AM
I think Clint has not the same image than Bronson.

Clint's character is often very amusing, he has this funny side who makes that we can't take him too seriously.

Instead, Bronson's character is really "untouchable". He has only one thing in mind: REVENGE. There's no humour in Bronson's character, even if he's ironic sometime. Not only that, I also think that Bronson's character has a "tragic" side (in the sense of greek tragedy) which is not present in Eastwood.

So I don't mind to see Clint beated, but I couldn't stand to see Harmonica beated.

I think it's not fair to make a comparison between Clint's character and Bronson's one

Exactly.

Untouchable.I couldn't find a better word for it.Bronson's character has a sort of divine and mythical feel to it.Even though he's being ironic at times,on the whole he is quite serious and hungry for revenge.You just couldn't imagine Harmonica being beaten like a dog.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: shorty larsen on January 02, 2004, 01:55:07 PM
Yeah, hard to imagine.

And unacceptable to me.

It's true that it would give a more "human", "mortal" side of Bronson's character, but it's not the way I like to see it.

And I think Leone had his mind clear about that too.

That's why he decided not to have the scene on the movie.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: Jayson Kennedy on January 03, 2004, 09:01:48 AM
Yep, I agree, Harmonica almost transcends time and space throughout the entire film and to show him beat to a pulp in the first reels would hurt his character immensely, still would have loved to see the footage on the new DVD set though as an independent supplement...  
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: shorty larsen on January 03, 2004, 11:42:44 AM
True. Now that we KNOW that the scene existed, and we even saw the photos of the scene, I don't mind to have the scene included, not in the film, but in an independent supplement.
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: JFM on January 03, 2004, 03:35:45 PM
My understanding was/is that the cut scene involved Harmonica being beaten up by the town sheriff & his men, who thought Harmonica might have had something to do with the McBain killing. I could be wrong...

Anyway, I saw the DVD recently and didn't know anything about that cut scene. When Harmonica appeared with the scar, I assumed (automatically) that he had received it by Jill's doing.

During the previous night she hears Harmonica's harmonica, looks out the window and sees a match being lit. She fires a rifle shot and the match drops to the ground. I took it that the bullet had hit/scratched Harmonica.

At least that way the scar makes sense.

---
jfm
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: shorty larsen on January 05, 2004, 01:45:23 PM
The scar is definetelly from the beatten scene.

I saw some photos from that scene who doen's exists anymore, the problem is that I don't remember where.

Could it possibly has been in this very site???

Someone remembers?
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: KERMIT on January 05, 2004, 02:04:32 PM
i was thinking maybe bronson had an accident during fliming but if that were the case the make-up department would have covered it up.  :-\
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: JFM on January 05, 2004, 07:59:36 PM
The scar is definetelly from the beatten scene.
I saw some photos from that scene who doen's exists anymore, the problem is that I don't remember where.
Someone remembers?

I know it's from the cut scene. I only meant that it doesn't have to be seen as a continuity error. Since the movie doesn't explain where tyhe scar originates, the audience is free to use its own mind.

---
jfm
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: COLONNA on January 06, 2004, 02:25:17 AM
It thing Leone was wright in not including this scene. It would have shown us an Harmonica not so "invincible" or "untouchable".

I know that Harmonica was shot in the very first scene of the movie. But to be shot is not the same thing that to be beated.

I can stand a scene in wich Harmonica is shot in a duel, even if he have 3 rivals in front of him. But I'm not prepared to see Harmonica humillated by three guys beating him, if you know what I mean.

Sure Shorty, and  we are not prepared to see Harmonica speaking with a female and accepting to be touched by her.
Harmonica must be non-human . he must be a rock.

It seems that Sergio  suppressed all scenes where his heroe has a sexuality ( remember the famous "Clint-in-bed" deleted scene) or a normal sexuality ( Noodles in bed with Eve)
Title: Re:Harmonica`s scar
Post by: shorty larsen on January 06, 2004, 01:14:50 PM
Yeah, but I was watching OUTW one more time yesterday and I noticed that Harmonica touched the breast of Jill when he pushed her, before killing the two men near the well.

He could have touch her anywhere else, but the image is clear!!!