Sergio Leone Web Board

Other/Miscellaneous => Off-Topic Discussion => Topic started by: columba on May 24, 2006, 04:45:06 AM

Title: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: columba on May 24, 2006, 04:45:06 AM
When did the laws regarding animal cruelty start, in particular the ones about trip wires and horses?  Having asked that I know most of them are trained to fall as most horses fall to the left.
Sometimes though the question is when is an animal not regarded as an animal; should we really shoot/kill snakes or rabbits just for the sake of a film?
Which actors really care for animals and which see them as a prop?
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Banjo on May 24, 2006, 05:54:12 AM
Which actors really care for animals and which see them as a prop?
I read a Clint Eastwood biography and he's meant to love animals so much that if he witnesses even the slightest cruelty such as a spider getting squashed by one of his employees,he'll fire them.
The often quoted story of Clint having punched and knocked out a horse is thankfully a fabrication!
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: columba on May 29, 2006, 04:41:31 AM
I read a Clint Eastwood biography and he's meant to love animals so much that if he witnesses even the slightest cruelty such as a spider getting squashed by one of his employees,he'll fire them.
The often quoted story of Clint having punched and knocked out a horse is thankfully a fabrication!

It's really good to know that some people do care - especially the ones with influence.  It's also good to hear that he takes this as far as spiders, which lots of people totally disregard.  I realise spiders was just an example but...  Are there any others out there or is Clint Eastwood unique?
It's obvious from the horse / rider interactions and from the horses facial expressions that some actors are more animal friendly / sensitive than others but then some may have just learned to ride for the part and have no intention of doing so again (though I find it hard to imagine not wanting to ride again!).  there's an ending to one sw where a ride is totally flapping and booting his poor old neddie into a gallop (I assume at the directors orders and I can see why those orders would have been given) surely the actor, who is usually on of the better ones with animals, should just turned round and said no ( I'm sure they wouldn't have give the part to another).  I know that some horses can be more than a bit of a handful, some riders have electric bums and you can squeeze some horses until your legs meet in the middle and I'm sure in some cases this is the case but in others it's often painfully obvious that it isn't.  Today tricks, such as falling onto the near fore etc are taught kindly to horses that are receptive to it but I'm well aware that this wasn't always the case.
So what do people think about the way animals are used in films, there must be some people with views out there after all horses, at least, are fundamental to sw's They add such a lot to films shouldn't we should treat them with the kindness and consideration they deserve?
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Banjo on June 01, 2006, 04:57:01 AM

So what do people think about the way animals are used in films, there must be some people with views out there after all horses, at least, are fundamental to sw's They add such a lot to films shouldn't we should treat them with the kindness and consideration they deserve?
I do hate it in the older films when directors seemingly delighted in showing some really shocking horse falls(i'm glad they banned trip wires at some point because this is very cruel) and i'd be surprised if the animals came away uninjured in every instance.It didn't bother me in the slightest that the BBC censors removed a couple of seconds of bad horse falls from the DYS dvd because this had no bearing whatsoever on the storyline.
I'm not very happy seeing rabbits,birds,snakes etc being gunned down for our "entertainment" in films but one big redeeming factor in CGI effects which i usually abhor is that filmakers can completely remove the need for any animals to suffer. :D
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: grandpa_chum on June 01, 2006, 08:49:25 AM
i don't like to see animals being mistreated, but I also can't support any sensorship, important to the storyline or not... I can understand stopping it from happening more, but there is nothing we can do about the films that were made in the past... I'm a huge fan of great stuntmen, and i despise cgi, so my hope would be that they are training some pretty amazing animal stunt performers and not just deciding to cut out a whole section of realism from films... unfortunately(and i don't mean any of you guys), a lot of people and organizations fight against even having animals kept in possession and trained for anything on a movie set, so even that is a tough thing to do.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: columba on June 02, 2006, 05:17:22 AM
I'm glad that you don't like cruelty to animals and sure there's nothing we can do about past films but , although I don't always agree with censorship, I'd rather not see an animal in obvious distress; I can't see how it aids the film.  cgi would have it's place say if you were having to shoot say a snake or rabbit as killing any animal, however it's regarded, for entertainment is definitely not on.  If we wouldn't do it ourselves or do it to ourselves we have no right to ask an animal to do it.  Having said that I'm not a fan of cgi either but it does have it's place if well done and not overused.
Some animals enjoy learning tricks, some don't, those that don't should not be forced to do so.  If it is forced to do something against its will then that is cruel - if it's taught gently to do something and it's happy to do so then that's ok. 
As for animals being kept for movies I don't see the problem with this as long as they're kept in natural/normal conditions, do not want for basic needs and get the love and attention they require and deserve.  Some animal rights people do go over the top but if you could see some of the things we do to animals it's easy to see where they're coming from even if you don't agree with the way they go about doing things.  They don't regard dressage as cruel and that after all could be considered a series of tricks, but what they say about racing issues is all too true.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Groggy on June 02, 2006, 11:05:10 AM
Charlton Heston writes of his love of horses quite frequently in his autobiography (though he doesn't really like camels, it would seem).  And I've also read somewhere that Robert Ryan was also an equinophile (is that a word?).

I don't really have a problem with certain animals getting killed onscreen, for instance a snake or something of that nature, though I certainly don't enjoy seeing it, but I definitely don't like to see horses, dogs, cats, or like others mistreated.  I've read somewhere (don't remember which film) that there was a movie which featured a scene showing a real cat getting eaten alive by a swarm of rats.  And I'm glad I haven't seen that movie, because I honestly don't think I could take it.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Leone Admirer on June 02, 2006, 12:18:58 PM
Has anyone seen what happens to the chickens in the start of Pat Garett & Billy The Kid  ;)
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: grandpa_chum on June 02, 2006, 02:50:33 PM
I'm glad that you don't like cruelty to animals and sure there's nothing we can do about past films but , although I don't always agree with censorship, I'd rather not see an animal in obvious distress; I can't see how it aids the film. 

I agree, most of the time it's got nothing to do with the plot or the film at all, and nobody really likes to see it, I know I'd rather not, but i'm sure you see where i'm coming from that it doesn't really matter as far as cencorship goes. Idealy cencorship wouldn't happen, especially to older movies that are already made(there is no punishment for disregard of the rules going on), and for it not to happen it has to be across the board, if we pulled out something of an old movie that you'd rather not see, we'd have to pull out swears old christian women would rather not hear, and so on and so on... so i'm with you on stopping it, but leave the older movies alone.

as far as the chickens in pg+btk, it's not an ideal situation, but i don't see a problem with putting on film something equal to or better than what would be happening off film... I mean the chickens heads were coming off, probably in a more gruesome way. That and it is important.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Leone Admirer on June 02, 2006, 03:46:35 PM
How about the cock fight? (Don't worry I don't have a problem with the chicken scenes in this film, the BBFC do though).
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Banjo on June 03, 2006, 09:53:11 AM
Has anyone seen what happens to the chickens in the start of Pat Garett & Billy The Kid  ;)
Apart from Ride The High Country i don't have a high opinion of any of Peckinpahs other westerns(extremely dull,overlong and tedious) and from what i've read or heard about him,ignoring the fact he was an alcoholic and a drug addict he was it seemed quite a nasty piece of work-Susan George in an interview about Straw Dogs had very little nice things to say about him.The shooting chickens heads off scene was not only sickening(Clint Eastwood who in my books has not only made several westerns infinately superior on all levels to Peckinpah  would also never had resorted to such blatant and moronic animal cruelty)but totally unnecessary :( . Why not do something like Parolini did in Adios Sabata and have Patt Garrett shooting a weather cock instead? :-\
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Leone Admirer on June 03, 2006, 09:59:09 AM
I'm a big fan of Peckinpah so I can't/don't agree with you about his films but yes later on in his life he seemed to be one of the biggest a**holes in the film industry. I recomend, if you haven't already, to check out Sam's Ballard Of Cable Hogue. It's like Leone making his serious westerns then going on to produce Nobody. Sam made the Wild Bunch and went on to make the light hearted (and quite emotional) Hogue with an excellent performance by Robards as the title character. The Wild Bunch for me is his best film and I can watch that many times.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Banjo on June 03, 2006, 10:11:25 AM
I'm a big fan of Peckinpah so I can't/don't agree with you about his films but yes later on in his life he seemed to be one of the biggest a**holes in the film industry. I recomend, if you haven't already, to check out Sam's Ballard Of Cable Hogue. It's like Leone making his serious westerns then going on to produce Nobody. Sam made the Wild Bunch and went on to make the light hearted (and quite emotional) Hogue with an excellent performance by Robards as the title character. The Wild Bunch for me is his best film and I can watch that many times.
I always look out for Peckinpahs films because of his reputation and unfortunately Ballad Of Cable Hogue has never been on tv in recent years.
I really don't see whats so great about the Wild Bunch and unlike Leone characters i have a total inability to warm to any of the characters in Wild Bunch.The flashbacks are a damp squib compared to the spaghetti variety-with which he was obviously influenced by judging by the amount of violence(without the Italian subtlety) he injected in his later westerns.Apparently the amount of ammunition used in the finale was some sort of record-BIG DEAL-give me a more imaginative ending anyday! :)
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Leone Admirer on June 03, 2006, 10:16:44 AM
I can see your point but for my viewing experience, you start to sympathise with this band of killers. The ending for me is one of the best in cinema, 'Let's Go' sends chills down my spine. Goldsmith's score is excellent and Ryan's portrayal as the haunted Thorton is just brilliant. Holden's Pike has often been identified by Peckinpah friends and relatives to be a reflection of the director. I can't imagine any one else in the role except Holden.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: columba on June 05, 2006, 09:31:38 AM
How about the cock fight? (Don't worry I don't have a problem with the chicken scenes in this film, the BBFC do though).

So why is this cruel scene vital to the film?
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Leone Admirer on June 05, 2006, 09:37:31 AM
It's a good point, but do you mean the cock fight or the heads blowing off Chickens opening?

It's a good point, but do you mean the cock fight or the heads blowing off Chickens opening?

 I also want to say I don't condone Animal Cruelty in films but the sequences in which the horse has been deliberatly felled just don't warrant deletion in my opinion. The MPAA alowed the Chicken sequences to be included because (and I'm not overtly sure how this works) the Chickens were most likely to be killed and eaten anway. I think it's a case of, of this scene is going to disturb you don't watch it. Pat Garret & Billy The Kid is an excellent film in my opinion though, if perhaps one of his most filawed alongside Major Dundee.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Banjo on June 05, 2006, 04:04:00 PM
It's a good point, but do you mean the cock fight or the heads blowing off Chickens opening?
They're both pretty bad although for the latter the chickens were gonna be killed anyway,its still a very indignant way for the poor animals to go :-[
    Apart from that the Pat Garett movie was a huge disappointment considering the actors involved although i liked Dylan as Alias together with his musical score.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: columba on June 09, 2006, 01:53:37 AM
That doesn't make it acceptable to have them killed in a barbaric way for our entertainment.
Please excuse one liners but I have a bad back at the moment! :)
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Arizona Colt on June 12, 2006, 12:45:18 AM
The film groggy is referring about the cat being eaten by rats is from MEN BEHIND THE SUN. A film about the atrocities committed against the chinese by the japanese during WW2-a topic which little is known about in this country. The film is one of the most harrowing ever put to celluloid and is more difficult to sit through than CANNIBAL HOLOCAUST. The sequel BLACK SUN-THE NANKING MASSACRE is equally disturbing. A rough ride that sticks in your mind long after viewing is over.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: The Firecracker on June 12, 2006, 01:36:10 AM
The film groggy is referring about the cat being eaten by rats is from MEN BEHIND THE SUN. A film about the atrocities committed against the chinese by the japanese during WW2-a topic which little is known about in this country. The film is one of the most harrowing ever put to celluloid and is more difficult to sit through than CANNIBAL HOLOCAUST. The sequel BLACK SUN-THE NANKING MASSACRE is equally disturbing. A rough ride that sticks in your mind long after viewing is over.

yes I have heard of these incidents. Nasty situations such as soldiers forcing brothers to have sex with their mothers and so forth. Very disturbing indeed.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Banjo on June 12, 2006, 04:46:23 AM
Firecracker did you see Alex Coxs intro to Django Kill where he said the totally uncut version included much much more unsavoury and depraved material including animal cruelty :-[
I wouldn't want to see a version any longer than what was on ITV4 recently-the same as the DVD i understand. :-\
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: The Firecracker on June 12, 2006, 11:30:05 AM
Firecracker did you see Alex Coxs intro to Django Kill where he said the totally uncut version included much much more unsavoury and depraved material including animal cruelty :-[
I wouldn't want to see a version any longer than what was on ITV4 recently-the same as the DVD i understand. :-\


yes that intrigued me. I wonder if that is actually true or is just a rumor. I wouldnt mind seeing the full version if it does exist.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Groggy on June 12, 2006, 04:51:41 PM
The film groggy is referring about the cat being eaten by rats is from MEN BEHIND THE SUN. A film about the atrocities committed against the chinese by the japanese during WW2-a topic which little is known about in this country. The film is one of the most harrowing ever put to celluloid and is more difficult to sit through than CANNIBAL HOLOCAUST. The sequel BLACK SUN-THE NANKING MASSACRE is equally disturbing. A rough ride that sticks in your mind long after viewing is over.

Ah, thanks for reminding me.  Is the movie actually worth watching or is it just a gore film?  I know quite a bit about Unit 731 and other Japanese atrocities during WWII, so the subject matter seem interesting, but from what I've read it seems mostly focused on the gross-out factor.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Banjo on June 12, 2006, 05:06:39 PM
yes that intrigued me. I wonder if that is actually true or is just a rumor. I wouldnt mind seeing the full version if it does exist.
Maybe theres some photo stills remaining just like there are for DYS? ::)
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: The Firecracker on June 12, 2006, 05:10:31 PM
Maybe theres some photo stills remaining just like there are for DYS? ::)

dont think so. I cant imagine anybody wanting to save lost footage from Django Kill.
That is something to ask Tomas Milian.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Banjo on June 12, 2006, 05:15:28 PM
dont think so. I cant imagine anybody wanting to save lost footage from Django Kill.
That is something to ask Tomas Milian.
Might be worth an internet search-but i'm not sure if i care about the movie enough to bother-its only curiousity because i can't stand Django Kill.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: The Firecracker on June 12, 2006, 05:35:15 PM
its only curiousity because i can't stand Django Kill.
ditto.
Title: Re: Animal training / cruelty
Post by: Arizona Colt on June 12, 2006, 10:31:55 PM
For Groggy, it's a little of both actually. The focal point of the story is a group of young kids who are forced to become soldiers in the japanese army and witness many atrocities committed against the chinese and russians during the war. Both films are amazingly accurate and as depressingly bleak and violent as they may be they don't begin to reach the surface of far more brutal actions perpetrated on the chinese people. Have you read the NYTimes bestseller THE RAPE OF NANKING? If not you should buy it immediately as it is one of the most tragic and thought provoking books you're ever likely to read. The author Sylvia Chang was found dead last year on a dead end road with a bullet in her head. She had been travelling around the US as well as Japan teaching the youth of today about what happened since in Japan there school books are altered so as not to mention anything that had happened there. A fascinating read. I also have a book entitled HORRORS OF WAR: JAPANESE WAR CRIMES IN WW2. There is great details about camp 731 and Nanking as well as the many tortures and instances of barbarism even cannibalism among the jap soldiers who were ordered at one point to eat the dead POWs. It's strange that our government covered most of this up because japan was seen as a future allie so instead of executing all of the war criminals they simply let them stay in power. What the japanese did to the chinese was far worse than anything Hitler did to the jews. In fact some of the jap atrocities even disturbed the nazis. I also have a dvd I picked up in chinatown called HORROR IN THE EAST that covers Nanking and Pearl Harbor that even has interviews with surviving Nanking victims as well as a japanese officer who was a kamikaze that survived. He states that many of the young boys didn't want to die for Japan but if they refused they would be executed on the spot. Also in the BLACK SUN movie actual footage of atrocities is inserted into the film at certain spots during the movie. This footage was captured by a sympathetic nazi named John Rabe who had smuggled the footage inside the lining of his jacket in hopes of getting the killings halted. This footage turned up as a propaganda film back in 1945. Be warned about the two films however as they are extremely difficult to watch.