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Messages - The clint

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Duck, You Sucker / Re: Soundtrack Question
« on: August 14, 2016, 01:01:32 PM »
Any link to this music?

Well... It's here, but the quality is horrible  :-\

Duck, You Sucker / Re: Soundtrack Question
« on: July 24, 2016, 06:18:06 AM »
My confusion lies with the music played during the end credits. In the Italian version, the Giu la Testa track played as the credits roll doesn't sound like any of the versions featured on my expanded soundtrack. It just seems so odd considering the CD seems to feature almost every musical piece or cue found in the film.

I can confirm that the version of Giù la testa played over the original end credits is absent from the expanded soundtrack. It can be found (in stereo) on the Italian DVD and BD, and (in mono) on the German audio track of the 2003 MGM DVD and the 1989 LD of the US theatrical cut from Image entertainment (in horrible, wobbly quality). I hope this has been of help.

Duck, You Sucker / Re: DYS soundtrack comparison
« on: December 08, 2015, 02:01:49 AM »
The US BD does not have the original mono, nor does it have a downmix of the surround track. Technically, the Italian BD, for the most part, has the original mix (Juan's line "What About Me?" as well as his yell before the explosion come from the Italian track, though. It switches right before the flashback but contains all the correct music, thankfully). There are, however, some issues with the clarity and sync of the track. That, coupled with the washed out image quality (still better than the MGM, IMO, but not by much) and showing too much image info on all sides makes this release a bittersweet compensation for what MGM have given us.

I really wish some company like Criterion or Arrow would get their hands on these movies and release them properly, because while they're in the hands of these hacks, it seems we'll only get deeply faulty releases.

Really? None of the reviews I saw indicated that MGM had actually reissued the film with the original mix. In any event, it doesn't include the International Version, even though it would have been the easiest thing in the world with seamless branching. Add to this the dodgy color correction and this release doesn't hold much hope of winning me over.

What's GOOD abou this version:

mono soundtrack option
Chritopher Fraylings superb commentary. He deserves the title "Sir"!
Vibrant colors
restored scenes in mono

I really like the release and with the original mono audio, it's a no-brainer for those who want English dialogue

I'd hope they'd keep the original mono, and for image, keep the colors similar to the MGM SE DVD. Still hoping for a definitive release of one of the greatest movies of all-time.

Guys... Hate to break it to ya, but the new BD doesn't contain the original English mono track. The BD mono track is a mixdown of the surround hack-job that was created for the extended version around the year 2003. To my knowledge, every English mono track on an MGM/20th Century Fox release of a Leone film since 2003 has been a mixdown. I think hell will freeze over before MGM/Fox release a Leone BD with an original soundtrack, because that would expose all the inauthenticity the crept into the surround mixes.

Also, a real English mono mix of the extended version The Good, the Bad and the Ugly doesn't exist. The mono soundtrack with English dubbing was mixed only for the International version and we probably won't see that released again either. I still have the 1998 DVD though, the only version I've watched for years, and the only one I'll ever watch from here on.

Here, acknowledge that the English mono of GBU is a mixdown:

Duck, You Sucker / Re: Which ending?
« on: December 11, 2012, 01:15:20 PM »
The extended cut, provided that it's the original version that can be seen on the Italian DVD. I'd have the original cut any day over that bastardized extended version that showed up on the CE and SE, though.

Duck, You Sucker / Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« on: December 02, 2012, 07:04:36 AM »
Splice marks heard on the soundtrack are sometimes a result of scenes being cut for different territories.
The pub scene where Sean kills John, was edited in the English language version for violence -one shot instead of two.

Apart from the mention of the cut for violence, in which case you're correct, I said the same thing here:

I suspect it's because the best quality English language track John Kirk & Co. had access to was the edited 137 minute US release ... which removed the long shot of David Warbeck nodding to John and thus had to resort to a similarly cheap edit. The French language version on the SE does have the original track, but that's because the French release of the film wasn't edited down, unlike the English version, and there was no need for the splice. The audio quality of the French version of the scene is indeed horrible as per the master they had access to, but at least it's the original track.

I'd also like to mention that the aforementioned French track on the SE corresponds (in this scene) to all Italian versions I've seen, the 1996 Laserdisc, the full English language track on the 2003 DVD, the German and French soundtracks on the same DVD and even the horribly edited Spanish DVD! The odd ones out are the SE and 137 minute bastardized US release, neither of which are reliable sources. The SE even makes the mistake of removing the sound effect of John cocking his rifle, it was probably just forgotten because they'd already wiped the original track in place of the new, edited music!

I also mentioned that the SE was badly spliced, but I just popped in the SE and that isn't really correct: The tracks are crossfaded together but I stand by everything else I said.

btw ALL the music on ALL the "Dolby Surround/Dolby Digital 5.1"versions is fake stereo.

This is simply incorrect. Yes, the track they use no less than three times in the film (final two flashbacks, end credits) appears to be in fake stereo, but the other bits that were culled together from the rest of the soundtrack (apparently just for the final two flashbacks) are in real stereo, just listen to the sean, sean's during the opening bars of the two last flashbacks before they switch to the other track and you'll hear what I mean.

I switch to the English stereo version for the 'final flashback' which is in true stereo - no doubt because it never existed before the dvd restoration so they could start from scratch.

Wrong again, it's been intact for years in the Italian cut, and even though previous versions included only half a minute of it or didn't include it at all, all these versions (apart from the German cut which contains no music at all at this point) start to play the same music (track 1 on disc 1) over the image of John smoking and then smiling, and then either cutting to a short piece of the flashback or letting the song play out over the subsequent explosion and end credits. There was never any debate about which music was supposed to be there before the John Kirk restoration.

can each of you summarize your views on which is the correct music for the final flashback scene? I know it was discussed earlier, but, rather than wading through all those extensive posts on the first 7 pages, I am wondering if the two of you -- and anyone else that has a firm opinion -- can provide your opinion on the correct music for the final flashback scene?

There's no doubt in my mind that the correct music for the final flashback is the unedited Giù la testa theme (track 1) from the soundtrack. I refer you to the arguments I presented here above in response to uncknown.

Duck, You Sucker / Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« on: December 01, 2012, 04:31:27 AM »
Now, one last comment on DYS - the pub scene:

The music as it appears in the se dvd is correct. I saw DYS when it first came out in 1971. Numerous times (for the music).
The French version has different music, which appears to be incorrect. As previously mentioned, DYS was re-issued in Dolby Sterro in France in the 1980's. This necessitated re-mixing the score. Apparently, they used an incorrect cue for the scene where Sean shoots John. It's a jaunty take, totally inappropriate for such a dramatic scene (perhaps this take was meant for the first flashback?)

Which pub scene are you talking about? The former or latter? If you're talking about the former, you'd be right. If you're talking about the latter, you're oh so wrong! I've seen the film numerous times in various incarnations on VHS, Laserdisc and DVD in English, French, German and Italian and they all contain the same take (track 15 on disc 2 of the expanded soundtrack) of the track which incidentally, only exists in mono or faked stereo! The SE version, as I stated earlier, has the beginning of track 1 on disc 1 badly spliced to track 13 on disc 2 which is something that would never have been done during scoring sessions and is obviously just a cheap fix.

I suspect it's because the best quality English language track John Kirk & Co. had access to was the edited 137 minute US release (all the restored bits of dialogue sound horrible on the SE, even inferior to the 2003 PAL DVD) which removed the long shot of David Warbeck nodding to John and thus had to resort to a similarly cheap edit. The French language version on the SE does have the original track, but that's because the French release of the film wasn't edited down, unlike the English version, and there was no need for the splice. The audio quality of the French version of the scene is indeed horrible as per the master they had access to, but at least it's the original track.

The only logical reason I can think of for why they didn't just use the already available complete stereo masters for Ennio Morricone's score for the film is that they would have to pay licensing fees to the Italian company that holds the rights for them, which they obviously opted not to do, cheap bastards!

Duck, You Sucker / Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« on: November 29, 2012, 03:37:10 PM »
Was that a rhetorical question?

Duck, You Sucker / Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« on: July 11, 2012, 12:24:52 PM »
Again my question for the pup scene. Where's the big difference between the 2 versions?

For the final flashback it is of course a difference.

The original music (Italian DVDs, 2003 MGM DVD) that plays over the slow motion pub scene in which John kills both soldiers and then his friend is track 15, disc 2 on the expanded soundtrack. The SE features a very makeshift edit of two takes (again!) starting with a few seconds of track 1, disc 1 and then using the second gunshot to cover up a splice to track 13, disc 2 (the same track that was later re-used for the SE flashback scene and then yet AGAIN over the closing credits. No version of the film featured this track anywhere before the SE).

Duck, You Sucker / Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« on: July 09, 2012, 06:22:38 PM »
-- Which music plays on the Mondo and CVC versions?

-- the SE has some other audio discrepancies, which are included in the clips I linked to in the first post in this thread. Maybe if we can know for certain which is the correct version of the audio in the other video clips, we can assume that the same version gets it correct in the final flashback's audio as well.

The first version in the youtube video is from the CVC/Mondo version, the second is from the MGM SE. The other video containing various minor (but still important!) audio discrepancies features the 2003 MGM DVD's mono track played first, and then the erroneous SE track (that censors or alters some dialogue, and makes changes to small music cues throughout). The 2003 DVD's mono track agrees, in all instances, with the CVC/Mondo DVDs and I assume it's the most faithful English language version that's available, albeit sounding rather muffled.

Duck, You Sucker / Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« on: July 09, 2012, 07:15:08 AM »
As I understand it, this movie was released in its full length in Italy, but other than that Italian release, it was never released in its full length until the various special edition restorations were released in the early 2000's. Is that correct? If so, we can probably assume that that original-release Italian print has the correct music. Is that version available anywhere? is there an Italian dvd that has the full flashback? If do, can we assume that that dvd is the original print?

Information about whether or not the Italian release contained the full flashback scene seems a little sketchy: Some sources claim it did, others claim that it didn't, and some claim it was part of the premiere version and then subsequently removed, I really have no idea which one is true. What I do know is that at least the last two DVD editions (from CVC and Mondo) released in Italy (not sure if there were any released before these) do contain the final flashback and I think it's reasonable to assume that they contain the original soundtrack.

Duck, You Sucker / Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« on: July 08, 2012, 04:32:32 PM »
However, I believe you are mistaken about Frayling saying the SE mix is incorrect in the commentary. I just watched the commentary a couple of nights ago, I don't believe that Frayling says a word about SE audio mix being correct, nor does he even mention that there is a discrepancy between various audio versions.

- - -

But I do not believe that Frayling's commentary ever addresses the musical discrepancies between the various versions of the final flashback(except when he mentions that the cussing was initially taken out and later put back in), nor does he even address the issue of the music's stopping and starting again.

While you're right about Frayling never saying anything about there being more than one sound mix for the flashback scene, one thing he said makes it seem that he thinks this is the way the soundtrack is supposed to be:

...and the Sean theme by Morricone is about to go down to make way for another theme for the final part of the flashback.

Duck, You Sucker / Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« on: July 07, 2012, 04:49:22 AM »
And coming back to the Italian version, the YouTube only compares the 2 English DVDs, but has anyone checked the Italian version?

The youtube video compares the Italian CVC DVD to the English CE. The old English DVD has no final flashback scene. I can verify this, I have all three :)

Duck, You Sucker / Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
« on: July 06, 2012, 05:03:21 PM »
I am not sure which cue belongs at the end of DYS because i never saw the unedited version until the se dvd. But,  i think the best answer would come from the French version.
Leone was revered in France and I believe DYS played there UNCUT in its initial run.
After Leone's death it was re-released in DOlby Stereo. This version can be heard on the MGM special edition FRENCH audio track and is far superior to John Jerk's version.

ps John Jerk is the devil! >:D

I'm afraid this is incorrect. The French language version on the SE does indeed have the correct music for the flashback in which John shoots his friend, but contains the same music for the final flashback and end credits (both incorrect cues).

The final flashback music that plays in the sedvd is how Morricone composed and conducted it.
Since it seems to follow the aCTION , it is probably the correct music.

Incorrect again! The music that plays over the final flashback on the SE is in fact a mix of TWO songs from the soundtrack: The beginning with them running in the field re-uses the opening bars of "I figli morti" (track #5, disc 1) but the song is then cross-faded to a rather echoey mix of "giu la testa" (track #13, disc 2) that had only appeared on compilation albums before the release of the SE! If this were the correct mix this would be the only time a song is cross-faded into another in a Leone film!

You are assuming that the You Tube version is the original one.
I  believe the poster simply dubbed/overlayed  the music he THOUGHT was used in the original version.
THE FINAL FLASHBACK was severely shortened by the distributors in the various countries it played. Leone complained that even in ITALY it was shortened.
Unless one saw the film when it was originally released in a country that did not shorten it, there is no way of knowing for sure.
I  am going to surmise the se is correct for the reasons stated;
1. It is the same on the French audio which is taken from a composite mix (although it is POSSIBLE Jerk played around with it, I doubt it)
2. the Morricone piece is exactly the same length and seems to match the action e.g. the way it fades out with the picture

Christopher Frayling might know - ask him! ;D

Jesus Christ, I'm beginning to think you're being payed by MGM to say these things! Firstly, it's true that many countries had a shortened version of the flashback but that doesn't really matter because in all of them you can still hear the opening bars, and guess what, they're the opening bars of track #1, disc 1 of the soundtrack. None of that should matter either because when the Italians (who definitely have more knowledge and respect for Leone's work than MGM) restored the film for DVD they used the entire track #1 for the sequence, exactly the way it's shown on the youtube video!

Secondly, track #13, disc 2 on the soundtrack (the one that's used for the SE) is not the same length as the flashback sequence. It clocks in at a mere 3:02 while the flashback itself (not counting the lead-in shot of John) is 3:25. So including the lead-in the whole track should run about 3:40 which only fits two tracks on the soundtrack, track #1, disc 1 and track #15, disc 2, which is the version that already played during the previous flashback of John murdering his friend (in the original version at least).

And no, Christopher Frayling doesn't know, he thinks the SE mix is correct for some crazy reason (at least MGM got him to acknowledge it in the commentary).

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