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Messages - poderator

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For a Few Dollars More / Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
« on: April 06, 2007, 12:04:42 AM »
My point is: Mortimer throw his name in front of Indio.  It suppose to mean something to Indio, to provoke his reaction. And reaction came instantly. No one knows that Indio killed those two, but still Mortimer knows who killed his sister. OK, maybe he find out somehow, but how come Indio knows who Mortimer is? We don't know if that event from the flashback was Indio's first murder. He sure looks pretty calm to me. Indio is fascinated there is no doubt about that. But Indio and Mortimer shared their past long before those flashback events even occur. That's my opinion.

For a Few Dollars More / Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
« on: April 05, 2007, 03:13:59 AM »
I think you've got this nailed, except that the flashbacks are intended to provide sympathy (or at least, understanding) for Indio. For him, the death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible experience, it was his initiation into liebestod, or "death-love." Hence, the highly aestheticized nature of the flashbacks: Indio's treasured memories.
I agree with almost everything you said, but I strongly disagree that death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible expirience for Indio. If that's true then why all that guilty look on his face?
Indio killed women and child that belong to his former gunmen. Not by his hand literary but still that's his deed. He tried to murder col. Mortimer by cheating. Indio has guilty conscious, there is no doubt about it.
Whenever he saw that watch he become tatally obsesed. Hell, he manage to make this watch the central hub of his existence. He can't do anything without that watch, not even kill a man. Indio's memories are attached to his watch, and picture of Mortimer's sister is inside. So it was a horrible expirience for him. Truth is, we dont't know for sure what Indio's relationship with that woman really mean. I think they shared past long before that flashback scene even occur. If not then why would Indio be so emotionaly attached to his/her watch, and that particulary memory? It would be just one rape and murder more on his list. We see that he doesn't have a problem when it comes to kill people in general. He has a problem with that one particular murder. Indio cried in that last showdown. He certainly didn't cry because he was afraid of col. Mortimer. His confidence is crushed because mortimer's name reminded him on that very moment, and all his emotional trauma that Sergio built trough the entire film reached the climax in the showdown, with Indio's tears. Indio isn't afraid of the person. He is afraid and haunted by his own mind, and his own thoughts.
Another thing; col. Mortimer said his name to Indio at the and of the movie. That means they knew each other before. Maybe they had some unfinished bussines, and that's why Indio killed his sister. Oposite is impossible, because Indio killed the guy and Sister killed herself. No evidents, no one was left alive to tell Mortimer that Indio killed her. It must be this first. Or Not ::)

For a Few Dollars More / Re: shootin' the hat
« on: April 05, 2007, 01:24:32 AM »
So it seems that col. Mortimer wanted someone handy with gun, and all that shootin the hat was some kind of the test for him to see Manco's skills, and if he pass, Mortimer would make him a partner. Mortimer is aware that Indio has a huge gang, and he can't take them all by himself. So we thought that Manco has the control over the situation, but that is only on surface. Truth is, Manco is joung less expirienced bounty hunter (less expirienced compared to col. Mortimer) who wants to eliminate possible competition, and he act according to that.  However Mortimer is the one who think in advance (he want capable partner, he got Manco, he shot Manco in the neck because he knows that Indio would suspect that something is wrong). This movie is the only movie in the Dollars Trilogy, I think, that someone is constantly smarter than Man With No Name (Eastwood's character). In FOD Joe outsmarts everyone, not to mention Blondie in TGTBU.

It would be nice to see sunset, or sunrise, but whole film is about some kind of sunset: sunset of the gunmen way of life, sunset of the Wild West, sunset of the mithology about Weterns.... I think that sunset or sunrise in this movie would be one convention too much for Leone. It would just state the obvious. Sunset of all things. He already did it in For a few dollars more and it looks amazing, so why doing it again?

Once Upon A Time In The West / Re: Morton's music theme
« on: March 25, 2007, 11:31:52 PM »
Something similar happens at the end of Giu la testa, when Sean's Theme is reprised after Mallory is blown up. It is a kind of memorial to the character who has passed, a way to remember him by. Notice that in OUATITW the final Cheyenne theme plays during the credits: the movie is over, the music is referring back to something we have already seen. Also, the theme is the exact cue known as "Adios Cheyenne" which includes the long pause near the end to show that Cheyenne has given up the ghost. SL is prodding us to remember the significance of a particular cue.

It's somewhat odd that Cheyenne is in this way privileged over Harmonica, but Harmonica is still alive (also, he no longer has an instrument or a theme). Music reminding us of Morton or Frank would have been inappropriate, and Jill's theme has just played. There is no other piece of music that CAN go there, and Cheyenne is due a remembrance.
I agree. Cheyenne music motif plays after title of the movie, so we can accept the fact that this music is not part of the main plot. Still, I like to think that Cheyenne's motif is here for a reason. Harmonica's theme would be inapropriate because his theme is revenge and he already fulfill it. Maybe main reason is because Harmonica is the only character from the Old West that survived at the end of the movie. This motif is sort of reminder that as long as Harmonica exist in this world there will be something of that ancient world left. Harmonica is the only living link that connect us with that mithic world of the Wild West. So this motif is a sort of hommage to the man from the border.

Once Upon A Time In The West / Re: Morton's music theme
« on: March 22, 2007, 02:10:48 AM »
Thanks alot Dave Jenkins! I have a question concerning Cheyenee's music theme (maybe you discussed this on the other threads. If so, can you tell me wich one?). As I recall (maybe I am wrong) Harmonica pick up Cheyenee's body on a horse, and main theme Once Upon a time in the West start. But after railroad and Jill sequence, we are back at Harmonica, and there is Cheyenne theme as Harmonica rides of. Cheyenee is dead too, he is, as we all know, killed actually and simbolically by the head of the railroad, Morton. He had his finall rattle on electric banjo too. My question is: why using the theme of the man that is no longer alive, his era has gone. Morton, Frank and Harmonica theme has ended in exact moment when they fulfilled their destinies. Morton and Frank died and the music that defined them is also gone. Harmonica finally gets what he want and his music also disappear. Why only Cheyenee's theme survived death of the character?

Once Upon A Time In The West / Re: Sam is wearing a duster!
« on: March 20, 2007, 12:35:43 AM »
Sam hate the railroad, simbol of the future that would make him useless and absolete. So he helps Cheyenee who is simbol of the old America, Old West. He is informator, no doubt. O0

Once Upon A Time In The West / Re: Morton's music theme
« on: March 20, 2007, 12:22:46 AM »
Thanks alot for the information, cigar joe! 

Once Upon A Time In The West / Morton's music theme
« on: March 19, 2007, 01:27:03 AM »
I went on Wikipedia and in the section music of an article Once Upon a time in the West i saw quote:"The film features the leitmotifs wich relate to each of the main characters (each with their own unique theme music) as well as to the spirit of the American West. There is only one character who doesn't have a leitmotif: Frank takes on Morton's leitmotif by killing him." This last sentence I don't understand. I know that Frank has his music "Like a judgment", and Harmonica's music leitmotif is "Man with Harmonica". As I recall, Morton does have his music (I believe in a scene when Morton looks at the picture with a ocean motif, and in a scene when he slowly dying near mug pool). So how come Morton doesn't have his leitmotif, and still Frank gets it from him by killing Morton. That is cotradictory. Beside the fact that Frank didn't kill Morton( and there is no solid evidence that Morton is even shot), wich scene in your opinion, shows Frank taking over Morton's theme? I didn't find that scene. I know that at the end of the movie Frank's motif is mixed with Harmonica's, but Mortons? Is it possible that Wikipedia made a mistake?I would like to hear your answer.

Once Upon A Time In The West / Re: "Something to do with death"
« on: March 07, 2007, 02:33:32 AM »
There is enough evidence to support either "Angel of Death", or "realistic" aproach to Harmonica's subject. That only makes things more interesting. Harmonica's fast recuperation after winchester shot sound even more impossible. The fact is, it can go either way. You can't ignore the fact that this movie has something that previous Sergio's films don't have. That mithycal aureol is present around Harmonica; light on his face, he just slides into the frame, that is something that  no other characters have. You have to ask yourselves: why did Sergio created that huge archetype out of Harmonica?

A Fistful of Dollars / Re: Final showdown in FOD
« on: February 25, 2007, 08:24:57 AM »
Maybe it was to shock Ramon, or to get a psychoogical advantage as Ramon was always going on about his Winchester rifle.
   I agree. It is the most logical thing. Ramon is almost in love with his rifle. I asked this question because in all of the Man With No Name trilogy Eastwood's character  shows machiavelian logic. I mean he unload Tuco's gun, he waits to see development of the events between Indio and Mortimer. His actions are deliberately slow and  carefuly calculated. When you rush things you make mistakes. Mistakes in the Wild West equals: Death. Clint character's know that they are very fast, but they always have another card in their sleeves.  That bullet is a life saviour in case of misfire.(but I guess there is no misfire in Leone movies ;)

Once Upon A Time In The West / Re: "Something to do with death"
« on: February 25, 2007, 08:06:39 AM »
Good point. Also, in the scene with Frank in the saloon, Harmonica knows that Morton have sent Frank's men to kill him. Harmonica was with Jill at that point, and conversation between Frank's gunmen and Morton was private. Even Frank didn't realize that someone is after him (and we all know that he is always carefull, after all, he is the only one who caught Harmonica of guard when he saw his shadow on the train).  No way that Harmonica could ever knew that Morton has turned Frank's man against him. Still he knows everything that's going on around him. Harmonica just by looking trough the saloon door saw Frank's gunmen instantly. Like he recieved thiese informations from some higher instance. Plus, there is always light around Harmonica, so surreal. First light, and then Harmonica walks in. "It's gonna be beautifull town SweetWater",  I mean, when you here this, you have a feeling that Harmonica knows that this is gonna be beautifull town, like he saw SweetWater 50 or 60 years from now , like he has some inner eye, like some prophet who saw future and know that for a fact.

A Fistful of Dollars / Final showdown in FOD
« on: February 23, 2007, 02:13:41 AM »
Maybe you already had discussion about this subject, but I  have one question. Joe first shot the rope, then Ramon's rifle, and finally four Ramon's gunmen. Totall: six bullets. Why does Joe aim at Ramon's rifle when it's empty. We all know from the "Unforgiven" that gunmen in duel against three or four people shoud kill the fastest one first. I know in this showdown, Ramon is the fastest, but his rifle is empty. So Joe could have save him for later. Those four had loaded guns and they were more dangerous for Joe. Why would Joe spend this precious moment in a duel on a empty rifle, when four other guys with a loaded wheapons waiting to kill him? Do you think that Joe's triage in this battle is wrong? 

Once Upon A Time In The West / "Something to do with death"
« on: February 22, 2007, 03:42:10 AM »
I' ve read your previous threads about Harmonica's unearthly presence( Tuco and Cigar Joe, thanks for directions). Harmonica as the Angel of Death. Wow. I thought that it is impossible even to concider Harmonica as some kind of supernatural character. Then I 've decided to explore and find some evidences to support that thesis. So I saw movie once more, searching for something unusual in Harmonica's character, following only Harmonica's moves and actions.
A) Analisis of the space; Harmonica often stands outside, perifferaly, always steps aside as if checking the situation in front of him, and monitors other characters reactions.
1) scene; In the saloon: Harmonica sits in the dark corner and waits for Cheyenee to introduce himself. He is watching and has it under control, but does not participate in Cheyenee's game. He leaves it to Cheyenee to lead the game for now.

2) scene;the scene on the ranch: Harmonica waits in the barn for Cheyenee and his people to leave. He is also watching Frank's gunmen move. He acts only when he wants to ruin Frank's plans, to prevent his killing of Jill and taking over the estate.

3) scene; trough the opening in the roof of the train Harmonica, ( once again from the background) listens to the conversation between Frank and Morton, and again, he is in a passive position.
4) scene;  Harmonica (from the background, again) from upstairs in the saloon is watching the shameful auction of the ranch, and development of the events from a broader perspective-a bird perspective. He acts in the right moment to prevent Frank get hold of the ranch.

5) scene; Harmonica goes upstairs in the saloon, and watches from there (as from the background) the duel between Frank and his former gunmen, paid by Morton to kill him.

6) scene; Harmonica sits on the fence and has excellent view on who is approaching (also he is out of the house where main characters are).  
All of the above speaks in favor of the fact that Harmonica is somewhat unreal character. Something like he is present there but also not  really part of that world. He is always in a way separated from the main focus of the scene, but only physically. In fact, he is always ahead of his oponents and anticipates their moves. He always acts timely, but only when Frank's plans need to be thwarted. As Freilling observed, he just slides into the frame, as if present at all times, and only waits for his moment to act. From this facts we see that Harmonica is the character of his own, viewed from the spacial aspect, but also from his behavior.

 B) Emotional aspect; He is never angry, he never loses control, and he is never sad in the true meaning of the word. The only thing that can bee seen in his eyes is a sort of melancholy, silent sorrow. all other characters cry, weep, lose their temper, laugh, rage but Harmonica is constant. Even when he smiles, it is a sad smile, accompanied with the look to the past. As if forever returning into that moment when his brother was hanged. That's where his life stopped, his thoughts, his senses. Body continued to live accompanied only with the emotion of hate and desire to revenge.
Resume; Harmonica is literary physically out from the large number of scenes with a main characters, but he knows exactly what is happening out there. He chooses higher positions in order to have upper hand in every possible moment. Like he has some strange control over the events. He moves slowly, but that only makes him more omnipotent. Always at the right place at the right time. You can hurt him but you can't kill him. I wan't say he is a ghost, I prefer someone of flesh and blood, but immortal. More like Brandon Lee's Eric from "The Crow". He can't bee killed until he fulfill his revenge. Finally Cheyenne's words: Something to do with Death. Cheyenne is a bandit, experienced man from the border. He killed a lot of people in his life, that's for sure. Main reason was money I presume. But he instinctively feels that Harmonica is on the much higher level than him. Death travels with him. He is driven dy his personal reasons, and that is respectful.

Once Upon A Time In The West / Re: analysis on jill
« on: February 22, 2007, 12:35:54 AM »
She was the biggest whore in New Orleans and the finest woman that ever lived! ;)

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