Blondie and his gun

[Harmonica]

Now you've made me have to go and watch the movie when I get off of work...  Damb you Joe...

[Harmonica]

Your right Cigar Joe,  but it's only in that scene.  The rest of the movie the loading lever and plunger are visible.  So he goes from a conversion to a cap and ball, dosen't make any sence?

Sorry about getting off topic here....

[cigar joe]

The same thing happens in GBU when Tuco puts together his custom gun in the gunshop. He puts various Colt parts together and when he clicks  and listens to the cylinder its definitely a cap and ball cylinder then he asks the proprietor for cartridges and proceeds to load a cartridge cylinder. Somebody screwd up on the continuity but its minor and would not be noticed by most people.

[Beebs]

Also I think at this time loose powder and ball were used
and not metallic cartridges.

I agree about the cartridges, it wasn't until about 1873 that metalic cartridges were available or at least widely available.
The movie clearly takes place during the Civil War (duh I almost feel stupid pointing it out for myself).

[cigar joe]

We went thru this before Beebs, they were available, S&W had then in 1852 and a lot of conversions were made to Colts by gunsmiths, somebody point this to the right thread.

[cigar joe]

Check this one out Beebs. http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/history.html

[al mullock]

i would like to give you more informations about these guns...i m a collectioner of black powder guns replicas and i can answer to all yours technical questions

first of all i m sure that you knows that the blondie gun is a colt navy 1851 in a 36 inch caliber...(octogonal barrel)

the tuco s gun is a sudist copy of the colt navy 1851 because in this case the barrel is  circular.the real name of this model is "griswold an gunnison" in a 36 caliber either. historicaly the gun s frame is not in steel  but in  an alliage of "bronze" (sorry i don't know the name of the metal alliage in english")
the production bought some italian copy of the great gun  firm uberti wich was the historically speaking the first firm to produce very good quality replicas of black powder guns...(first productionstarted in 1958!!)
the guns used in the gbu are not like the original guns because as you wrote before the conversion gun appeared later after the civil war
but it was more practical to use and safer for actors... (ask benito stefanelli he was a specialist as master of weapons...)


the angel eyes gun is a remington new model army in 44 inch caliber...

the color picture of the gun in josey wales is a model of conversion "colt 1861 army" it use normal metallic cartridge

the other one are colt 1861 army . only used with black powder (cap and ball system)
the difference between the 2 models is the steel stick under the barrel for the black powder model (in french it is named "levier de chargement " or loading *levier*

and as a conclusion the 2 enormous gun of clint in the movie "josey..." are  colt walker in cal.44 the most powerful (and heavy!)percussion colt of the black powder colt history:

[cigar joe]

Welcome Al

tuco s gun is a sudist copy of the colt navy 1851 because in this case the barrel is  circular.the real name of this model is "griswold an gunnison" in a 36 caliber either. historicaly the gun s frame is not in steel  but in  an alliage of "bronze" (sorry i don't know the name of the metal alliage in english")

I think alliage is "alloy" in English

[Sackett]

Watchin Wild West Tech the other day I believe it was.  They discussed the conversion of the cap and ball to cartridges.  Apparently, it was done a lot with the older pistols.

[CZ]

this page might interest you all, theres some valuable information a little down the page: http://www.armchairgunshow.com/otsAZ_conversions.htm


 

[Beebs]

We went thru this before Beebs, they were available, S&W had then in 1852 and a lot of conversions were made to Colts by gunsmiths, somebody point this to the right thread.

Apologies, I am merely saying widely available in all fields.

[Harmonica]

I've said it before and  I'll say it again.

It's happened all the time back then.  As long as there were mettlic cartridges made for rifles there were guys willing to saw off thier fricken cylinders to accomidate the cartridge.  It's as simply as that.  I'm sure they didn't give a rat's ass about infriging on anyones patent.

I'll run down the whole deal...

"Rollin White had taken out a patent dated April 3, 1855 for a revolver with the chambers bored all the way through the cylinder.  The patent was purchased by a firm (Smith and Wesson) who adapted a revolver built under it to the new rim-fire .22 caliber self exploding metallic cartridges.  This patent, despite the fact that it was not originally intended to apply to self exploding metallic cartridge revolvers, prevented, until it expired, any other firm from putting on the market a revolver that loaded from the rear of the cylinder.  Another factor that delayed the spread of cartridge hand arms was the difficulty of obtaining cartridges along the frontiers, where most of the large-caliber revolvers were used, until their manufacture and sale for use in rifles became widespread.

During the period of change, a great number of cap and ball revolvers were altered to take one of the self-exploding metallic cartridges put out for the use in rifles.  The rifle and revolver cartridges available for use in standard-size percussion-cap revolvers were: .32 short and long rim-fire, which would fit the .31 caliber Pocket revolvers; .38 short and long rim-and center fire, which would fit the .36 caliber Navy, Police and Pocket revolvers: the .44 rim-fire Henry and Ballard, .44 center-fire American and Russian which would fit the .44 caliber Old Model Army and the .44 Model of 1860 Army revolvers.

There were several methods of altering a cap and ball revolver to a cartridge arm.  The simplest way was accomplished by cutting off the part of the cylinder that contained the nipples, boring out the chambers to fit the cartridge to be used, filling up the space between the cut-down cylinder and the standing breech by inserting a plate of metal with an opening on the right side fir the insertion of cartridges, and adding a thin blade to the nose of the hammer to fire a rim-fire cartridge.  The most common of these alteration of this type were .36 caliber to a .38 rim-fire.  In the longer barreled .36 and .44 caliber models a hinged gate at the bottom and held by a spring catch was usually added to the opening for insertion of the cartridges(Blondie’s bad ass conversion), and a ejector rod was put on the right side of the barrel to shove out the empty shells.  Sometimes the old lever rammer was left in its place(Blondie’s bad ass conversion); sometimes it was removed and the hole filled up flush with the frame(smoky ruins gun from Josey Wales).  When either the .36 or .44 caliber arms were altered to take center-fire cartridges , the nose of the hammer was usually cut off flat and make to strike on a separate firing pin that was set with a rebound spring in the new breech plate that took up the space formerly occupied by the nipples of the percussion cylinder.  In some cases a new cylinder chambered for the cartridge to be used was fitted to the old frame.(Blondie's bad ass conversion)

Two types of alteration allowed for the use of a second cylinder still taking the regular cap and ball loose ammunition in case cartridges could not be obtained.  One used a special cylinder, bored through and usually counter-sunk for the rims of the cartridges, which had a cap fitting over the back end to hold the cartridges in place and was pierced with small slits at the edge of the chambers to allow the nose of the hammer to enter and explode the rim-fire cartridges.  To reload this type of alteration, it was necessary to dismount the barrel and take off the cylinder. The cap then lifted off the pins that held it to the cylinder and the empty cartridges could be pushed out by the center pin and placed by loaded ones.  As this system entailed no change in the frame of the arm itself, a regular cap and ball cylinder could be put in the place o the altered cylinder at a moment’s notice. 

The patents for the alterations of the Colt revolvers are listed on the frames of the altered arms as 1871 and 1872.  Factory alterations of Colt Army and Navy revolvers were in the hands of the services of the United States prior to November 27,1872, as an ordnance report speaks of the arms in use at that date as conversions of the cap and ball Colt revolvers.  Alterations other than factory work, done by private gunsmiths, are seldom dated and might be made any time after the cartridge that they are chambered for was put on the market.   "[End Quote]

Below are a listing of the typical types of conversions that individual owners, dubious gunsmiths and ingenious soldiers came up with for converting their cap and ball revolvers to cartridge firing pistols.
   

Conversion #1:
This conversion is done by cutting out the nipples off the rear end of the cylinder leaving a bore through hole to breech load.  The gap is then filled with a removable breech plate.  The hammer is cut to reach cartridges through a slit in the plate.  This type of conversion allows for cylinder style to toggle back and forth from percussion-cap to rim fire metallic cartridges.

Conversion #2:
This conversion is done by cutting through just forward of the nipples and taking the cutoff piece of cylinder and removing the nipples and replacing them with pins and slotting the piece to allow for a hammer with an added head to fall in the slots hitting the pins.  The piece is reattached to the cylinder.  This type of conversion allows for cylinder style to toggle back and forth from percussion-cap to rim fire metallic cartridges.
 
Conversion #3:
This conversion is done by cutting off the cylinder leaving bore through holes, filling the gap with a permanent breech plate with loading gate and rebounding firing pin.  No modification to the hammer required.  For center fire metallic cartridges.

Conversion#4:
This conversion is done by the same as above but mounting the firing pin to the hammer.  For center fire metallic cartridges.


Conversion #5 The Richards Mason Conversion
This was a factory machined process replacing the cylinder and barrel completely to accommodate for metallic cartridges and adding an ejector rod and center fire hammer.  These conversion were done legally after the Smith and Wesson patent ran out on bore through cylinders.


Conversion #6 The Thuer’s Conversion
This got around Smith and Wesson’s patent by loading the metallic cartridge from the front of the cylinder much like percussion-cap.  These took special Thuer’s ammunition and were clumsy and not very reliable.  The Cylinder has a movable rear end, which turns to allow the hammer to strike an ejection pin and throw the spent shell out the front.

From:
Haven, Charles T. (Charles Tower), 1904-

A history of the Colt revolver, and the other arms made by Colt's patent fire arms manufacturing company from 1836 to 1940, by Charles T. Haven & Frank A. Belden; with a foreword by Stephen V. Gransay.

New York: W. Morrow & Company, 1940.

[cigar joe]

thanks, good stuff.

[Harmonica]

This is a very rare excellent example of a "rouge gunsmith" taking it upon himself ignore the patent that Smith Wesson had on the bore through cylinder.  It is neither a Thur's conversion or Richards Mason Conversion, it's simply some guy who had access to .38 rim fire cartridges from Europe, who being oversea's didn't have to follow any US patent laws so started taking it upon themselfs, next to Smith and Wesson's small caliber rimfire's, to produce the first "mid to large" size caliber cartridges...

It is such a fine example of one of the first true early to mid '60 conversions that I am seriously thinking about buying it for my collection...



Notice how the back of the cylinder has a removable piece, which to breech load the cylinder.  You can see the individual firing pins behind each cylinder.  This type of conversion would allow you to toggle back and forth between cap and ball to metallic cartridge cylinders...
Example 2 mentioned above

[cigar joe]

Cool pics. This is the type of conversion Angel Eyes would have had for his Remington, in the final gunfight he's toggeled back to his cap and ball cylinder, even though he has some cartridges left in his belt.