Debate of the motives for Warbeck's shooting in the pub

[SeanSeanSean]

I met someone recently who is like me, a Leone afficeando and we got talking about the shooting and its motives.

He holds to the belief that Coburn shot Warbeck out of jealousy and the revolution was just a pretense. He points to the last scene flashback were we see Sean smile than fade out in anger at seeing Warbeck and Vivienne embracing passionately‎.

My position: I point out the underlying Ménage-à-trois, which he doesn't see. In the flashback, I see Sean smile than turn to ecstasy by being turned on by the kiss. He shot Warbeck for treason and has been ripped apart about it ever since, for killing his lover.

Does anyone else have a take on this?

[dave jenkins]

Today I was browsing through my copy of The Wit and Wisdom of Dave Jenkins and came across this relevant passage:

Yes, there is a menage a trois in the DYS flashback, but not a love triangle. The two are different. The latter almost always entails jealousy, the former does not necessarily . . . .

The point is, Leone gives no indication that there is anything dark going on between Sean and Sean prior to Nolan's capture by the British. Also, there is absolutely no reason to suppose that Mallory betrayed Nolan before Nolan betrayed the cause. Without any such evidence, it is best, IMHO, to stick with the simplest explanation the film affords us, namely: Nolan and Malory shared a political cause and a woman (who may symbolically represent that cause); Nolan fell into the hands of the British (perhaps in some mundane way); Nolan, under torture, betrayed his fellows; Mallory took revenge on Nolan (with Nolan's consent) and immediately regretted it; years later in Mexico he found a way to atone for his deed, and at the point of dying, experienced something resembling a state of grace (represented by the idyllic flashback that reunites Mallory with his friends in the Edenic Irish countryside). Other, more convoluted readings of the story are not supported by the film.

To my way of thinking, seeing anything other than approbation in Mallory's face when Nolan and the girl embrace is to misread the final flashback.

[drinkanddestroy]

I agree with you, DJ - and that's why the music that continues seamlessly in the final flashback fits much better; the one that stops and then re-starts when the girl moves from one guy to the other indicates tension, and therefore Coburn's final smile makes no sense with that music

[stanton]

If this last flashback had any importance for the film or the film's meaning, than Leone would never had cut it out. But if it had any meaning which changes something before, it should never had been put back, cause then Leone probably did not want the difference this scene makes for the film.

Also if Leone wanted this Nolan guy to be a 3rd Sean, than he would have made that clear in some way or another. So it is a damn far fetched interpretation.

My conclusion: Nolan is not Sean and the last flashback hasn't any special importance for the film.

[SeanSeanSean]

As far as I know, the major editing of Leone movies as in OUATITW, DYS and OUATIA was done by the studios and not by Leone himself. In fact against his will.
This is a the main reason these films didn't get the recognition they deserved on initial release as they have gained with the full Director's cut in later years.

It is said that Leone himself cut the beating scene of Harmonica in OUATITW, the Viega torture scene and the Juan taunt of Mallory in the desert similar to the Tuco and Blondie scene in TGTBATU, in DYS

The full version of DYS as we have on DVD today is the european version released in 1971 as intended by Leone with all the flashbacks. Luckily up here in Canada this was the version we got as well. Than came the cropped FOD mainly for TV for way too many years.
So all the flashbacks do have significance IMHO.

This great montage of the DYS flashbacks make a movie in themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkxLpPXjQe8

[stanton]

As far as I know, the major editing of Leone movies as in OUATITW, DYS and OUATIA was done by the studios and not by Leone himself.

That's pretty unlikely.

As far as I know the last flashback wasn't in any released version. It was restored in the mid 90s in Italy.

[SeanSeanSean]

That's pretty unlikely.

As far as I know the last flashback wasn't in any released version. It was restored in the mid 90s in Italy.

I beg to differ, and I don't know how old you are, but I remember seeing the full version on its initial release in 1971 in a theatre in Montréal.
 

[dave jenkins]

Also, there are two different versions with the final flashback, one that is shorter than the other. Both of these need to be accounted for. So, audio issues apart, there are three different cuts of the film: one without a final flashback, one with a short flashback (as featured on the 1996 LD release), and one with the longer flashback.

[drinkanddestroy]

seriously, stanton, you're doubting that Leone's movies were cut without his approval/input? 

[stanton]

I beg to differ, and I don't know how old you are, but I remember seeing the full version on its initial release in 1971 in a theatre in Montréal.
 

As far as I know the final flashback wasn't released at least in Italy or in Europe. Books say that it first appeared in the mid-90s restoration.

The detailed synopsis in the book by Oreste de Fornari doesn't mention it. Not even amongst the cut scenes.

[stanton]

Sorry I got this wrong. I thought SeanSeanSean talked about the editing itself. Of course the further cuts in the English versions of his films were made against Leone's will

[drinkanddestroy]

I have to believe that Leone wanted that full final flashback in the film. Without the final flashback, what do the flashbacks accomplish? It shows us that Coburn once betrayed a friend, that's all. The girl is useless without that final flashback,

[SeanSeanSean]

Now that we have the editing question resolved, let's get back to the topic.

Why did Mallory kill Nolan?
For treason
For jealousy
For something else
...or all of the above?

[stanton]

I have to believe that Leone wanted that full final flashback in the film. Without the final flashback, what do the flashbacks accomplish? It shows us that Coburn once betrayed a friend, that's all. The girl is useless without that final flashback,

It shows why Coburn went to Mexico and why he is so disillusioned. And it creates the contrast to Dr. Villega, the 2nd comrade who broke under torture.

The final flashback is for me only a short memorization of happier times in the moment he decides to die. Maybe also nothing more than an illusion, something he wished it had happened out of guilt. For me it doesn't change the film. A little ornamental addition which makes the ending more rounded and gives it a slight ambiguous touch.

I always thought that Nolan nods towards Coburn, giving by that his approval to kill him for the treason.

[dave jenkins]

I always thought that Nolan nods towards Coburn, giving by that his approval to kill him for the treason.

I believe you are right. And that makes the film richer: even with Nolan's approval, Mallory comes to believe that killing his friend was wrong. And hence his different treatment of Villega.