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: Once upon a time Sergio Leone exhibition in Paris  ( 23796 )
Novecento
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« #30 : October 16, 2018, 08:11:29 PM »

Has he heard anything about Giuseppe Tornatore's plans to make "Leningrad" which seem to have been floating around for years now.


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« #31 : October 17, 2018, 01:34:25 AM »

What does he think about the original yet unreleased theatrical versions of GBU and OUTW?

If he has any influence on the different right-holders of both films, then there would be a lot more questions like:

Why it is for Paramount not even possible to reconstruct the correct music for the closing scene of OUTW?
What does he think about the inclusion of the Rising scene in OUTW and of the Grooto scene in GBU?

etc, etc ...



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« #32 : October 17, 2018, 05:58:06 PM »

What does he think about the inclusion of the Rising scene in OUTW and of the Grooto scene in GBU?

Let's rephrase that to...

Do you have any idea what on earth Martin Scorsese and John Kirk were thinking when they left the "rising scene" in OUATITW and the "grotto" scene in GBU respectively?

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« #33 : October 17, 2018, 06:27:35 PM »

Let's rephrase that to...

Do you have any idea what on earth Martin Scorsese and John Kirk were thinking when they left the "rising scene" in OUATITW and the "grotto" scene in GBU respectively?

The rising scene was in Leone's personal print, which he gave to Scorsese. It's not what was released in theatres in 68 but he probably went by what was in the print.

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« #34 : October 18, 2018, 04:35:03 AM »

The rising scene was in Leone's personal print,

Was it? Did Scorsese say that?

But I'm sure the wrong closing music was not in that print.


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« #35 : October 18, 2018, 04:38:29 AM »

https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/085618-000-A/il-etait-une-fois-sergio-leone-a-l-ouest-la-revolution/

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« #36 : October 18, 2018, 06:59:37 AM »

https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/085618-000-A/il-etait-une-fois-sergio-leone-a-l-ouest-la-revolution/
Very, very, very Thank You.



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« #37 : October 18, 2018, 09:57:59 AM »

Can we ask Frayling if he's ever been to the filming site in Monument Valley?

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« #38 : October 18, 2018, 10:59:43 AM »

The rising scene was in Leone's personal print, which he gave to Scorsese. It's not what was released in theatres in 68 but he probably went by what was in the print.

Was it? Did Scorsese say that?

Yes - where did you read that? Regardless, narrative aside, the editing clearly shows that the rising scene was not supposed to be there and the transition was supposed to be straight to the McBain ranch.

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« #39 : October 18, 2018, 12:13:22 PM »

Drink has posted this link of Frayling speaking this year in Bologna: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzs5Ngmuel8

In this talk he mentions that OUATITW references 35 Westerns. In Something To Do With Death, though, I think he only mentioned 30 (though not listingh them all). I can't help wondering what the five additional Westerns might be . . . .



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« #40 : October 18, 2018, 04:14:27 PM »

Yes - where did you read that? Regardless, narrative aside, the editing clearly shows that the rising scene was not supposed to be there and the transition was supposed to be straight to the McBain ranch.

Leone interview in Diego Gabutti's "C'era una volta in America" (page 37) , when he talks about OUTITW: "People very often ask me whether my personal print of the movie contains scenes which had not been added in the final theatrical release" he said grinning "You see? It's like everybody wants me to add a little piece to it..!"
But I think the definite answer about missing scenes in OUTITW is in Franco Ferrini's book "L'antiwestern e il caso Leone" published in 1971. There is a part of an interview with Leone dedicated to cuts and missing scenes of all his westerns, and concerning OUTITW Leone says (page 42): "The scene with the laundry owner's wife and the sheriff is missing, another one in the barbershop, which was particularly funny" The interviewer then asks about the massacre scene (Morton's train) and Leone says: "No, that one I left out on purpose, it was more important to show the result rather than how it happened".
On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compaired to the commercial release.

Now we look at an interview with Scorsese - where he says Leone gave him his personal print of the film:

When did you meet Sergio Leone for the first time?

It was at Cannes in 1976, during a dinner at the Oasis, the year when Taxi Driver was competing. There was Costa-Gavras, Sergio Leone, both members of the jury, I, Robert De Niro, Paul Schrader, the screenwriter of Taxi Driver, Jodie Foster, Michael and Julia Phillips, producers of the film. Paul Schrader had toasted Leone to thank him for having toured with Once Upon a Time in the West one of the greatest westerns in cinematic history. We had arrived two days earlier in Cannes and depression we had earned. Tennessee Williams, the jury foreman, told the press he did not like at all Taxi Driver, he was too violent. At dinner, Sergio Leone and Costa-Gavras told us they liked the film. We thought Taxi Driver could still win a prize, perhaps for his screenplay, or its actors. But it took the Palme d'Or! And that is thanks to Sergio Leone.

How has your relationship with him?

I lived partly in Rome between 1978 and 1981. I saw him regularly. Particularly at a luncheon at his home December 31, 1979. I met his wife, his family, met the set designer Dante Ferretti, with whom I will work later on The Age of Innocence, Casino, Kundun, Gangs of New York, Aviator and Hugo Cabret. He knew how much I loved Once Upon a Time in the West, he gave me his copy of the film. It is this copy that I projected in 1980 Film Festival in New York. It was the first time I spoke publicly about the crucial issue of the preservation of films, and more specifically the question of color, which happens if the coils are not kept properly. When Sergio Leone came to New York, I offered to come to dinner with my parents who still lived on the Lower East Side in a building without elevator. We went with Elio Petri (the director of The Working Class Goes to Heaven, Golden Palm at Cannes in 1972). He especially liked the Sicilian cooking from my mother, very different from Roman cuisine to which he was accustomed. And my mother was sensitive to his knife and fork!

So it is fair to assume, Scorsese was working under the assumption that his print was the correct version since it was given to him by Leone, but as we can see it was not the theatrical release.

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« #41 : October 18, 2018, 06:06:58 PM »

Thanks for the references :)

On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station....

I suppose Leone's personal print of GBU might well have had the grotto scene included too since it was shown at the premiere before being removed. Personally I think that the "rising scene" being in the personal print of OUATITW that Scorsese received is not reason enough to include it without any option to watch the film without it. Presumably it was Leone who decided that audiences should not see that scene theatrically just as he had decided to remove the grotto scene from GBU.

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« #42 : October 18, 2018, 06:31:06 PM »

Yes, I agree with you. The 1968 release cut should be the standard.

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« #43 : October 18, 2018, 10:49:28 PM »

Thanks for the references :)

I suppose Leone's personal print of GBU might well have had the grotto scene included too since it was shown at the premiere before being removed. Personally I think that the "rising scene" being in the personal print of OUATITW that Scorsese received is not reason enough to include it without any option to watch the film without it. Presumably it was Leone who decided that audiences should not see that scene theatrically just as he had decided to remove the grotto scene from GBU.

 If you want to watch the movie without that scene, it’s simple: as soon as the four people are shot, click “next chapter“ and it take you to the next scene :)


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« #44 : October 19, 2018, 04:47:24 AM »



On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compaired to the commercial release.



So it is fair to assume, Scorsese was working under the assumption that his print was the correct version since it was given to him by Leone, but as we can see it was not the theatrical release.

And here is already the problem, the McBain scene is the same in all versions. It's one of those which are not longer in the 178 min ital. version. Nor in any other version we know. No, one has to ask Scorsese why this alternative version of the Blu is like it is.

I also want to recap that there is a German guy who has watched OUTW in the early 80s twice in Bologna in a normal cinema (not at a film festival), and claims that he saw there the long version, but without the rising scene. Which would then have been a 175 min version, which correspondents with the runtime of the Anica.it site.

I think Leone's personal print is the 178 min version which was refurbished in the 90s. Ans since then released in Italy as DC.


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