30 Westerns in Once

[KERMIT]

What did they use from Terror in a Texas Town Kermit? I've never seen this one.

ever see a bad guy in black boots, hat, horse ? bad guy is closet whuss wearing two guns being "called out" by a pissed off sterling hayden. the guy in black gets the point when hayden harpoons him in front of the entire town. quite possible bad guy was worst dressed, slowest draw in the west.

[cigar joe]

Good work Dave.
And Kerm, lol, I'll have to catch Terror in a Texas Town (I've seen it in the cheapie bin at FYE).

[dave jenkins]

Just watched My Darling Clementine again and noticed a couple things that SL may have taken for use in OUATITW. First, the scene when Wyatt Earp (Fonda) first meets Doc Holiday (Victor Mature). They do a bit of verbal sparring while standing at a saloon bar, and when it looks like things are going to get deadly serious a gun is quickly slid down the bar to the unarmed Wyatt. Wyatt is able to defuse the situation without violence.

Even more significant is Ford's use of music, or lack thereof, especially when we get to the big scene at the OK Corral.   Scott Eyman, in his book _John Ford: The Searcher 1894-1973_, makes this comment: "in a particular masterstroke, the climactic gunfight is played without blaring music, but with only natural sounds--wind; boots scuffling for purchase in the sand. The silence is haunting."

Huh. Put anybody in mind of another scene in another Western?

[Groggy]

I have seen "Rio Bravo" a number of times, and I see only the most superficial similarities with OUATITW, if any at all.  Could somebody point out to me what exactly constitutes a reference from that film?  And same with "Winchester '73".  The scene at the trading post really isn't at all like the one in "Winchester '73", so I wouldn't say that it's a reference.  And I agree with Dave Jenkins that the reference to "Warlock" cited by Frayling may be apocryphal.  Other than that Leone was a fan of that film, I don't see anything that would've been incorporated into OUATITW.

How about "Duel In The Sun"?  On the DVD commentary track, Sheldon Hall states that Leone based the character of Morton off Lionel Barrymore in "Duel of the Sun", and that seems like a pretty solid reference to me.

And "The Last Sunset"?  Bertolucci has stated that the final duel between Frank and Harmonica is an almost shot-for-shot replica of that film's equivalent scene, between Kirk Douglas and Rock Hudson.  (The scene also featured one of the gunfighters having an empty gun.)  I have not actually seen that film, though at least there's some evidence to back it up.

[cigar joe]

I think some of Fraylings "quotes" are misatributed, I was just re-reading today "Something to do With Death" and Frayling was talking about the quote from Rio Bravo, its when Blondie and Tuco walk down each side of the street in GBU not OUTITW, after Angel Eye's gang which quotes John Wayne and Dean Martin patroling the street in Rio Bravo.

[Groggy]

I think some of Fraylings "quotes" are misatributed, I was just re-reading today "Something to do With Death" and Frayling was talking about the quote from Rio Bravo, its when Blondie and Tuco walk down each side of the street in GBU not OUTITW, after Angel Eye's gang which quotes John Wayne and Dean Martin patroling the street in Rio Bravo.

If it's in re GBU, it makes considerably more sense.

[Groggy]

I think also that the "Western Union" reference is questionable.  The movie does contain a scene of Dean Jagger's character, having been

kicked in the ribs and left for dead, crawling towards a puddle of water and collapsing (e.g. Morton's death).  But I'm not 100% sure this

constitutes a reference.

Also Frayling's so-called "reference" to "Pursued" was that Maureen sings "Danny Boy" right before the massacre.  Sorry, Chris, I don't think

that's quite enough to go on for sure (unless Leone and Co. have confirmed it).

Here is a list (based on my own observations, and those of some of the users here) of references:

Definitely or Almost Definitely Intentional:
- High Noon
- 3:10 To Yuma
- Johnny Guitar
- The Searchers
- Shane
- Ride The High Country
- The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
- Duel In The Sun
- The Last Sunset
- My Darling Clementine
- The Paleface
- The Comancheros
- The Magnificent Seven
- The Iron Horse
- Fort Apache
- For A Few Dollars More (I know it's one of Leone's own films but I just had to include it  )

Possible, Could Go Either Way
- Western Union
- Ace In The Hole
- Jubal
- High Sierra
- Farewell, My Lovely
- Run of the Arrow
- Man From The West
- Man Without A Star
- Red River

Cited as a "Reference", But Almost Certainly Not:
- Warlock
- Rio Bravo
- Gunfight At The O.K. Corral
- Winchester '73
- Pursued
- Last Train From Gun Hill

So, assuming all of those are real references, that's thirty-one; however, keep in mind a) a lot of these are questionable, and quite likely apocryphal, and b) that several of those films are not actually Westerns.

BTW, does anyone else think that Maureen McBain = Maureen O'Hara? 

[cigar joe]

Winchester 73's refrence was suposed to be Lionel Stander's trading post. Warlock suposedly referenced by Cheyenne's search for his mother. I'd almost have to catch them again to check.

[Groggy]

Winchester 73's refrence was suposed to be Lionel Stander's trading post. Warlock suposedly referenced by Cheyenne's search for his mother. I'd almost have to catch them again to check.

I think I said above, I don't think either of those references are really close enough to be considered as such, though Frayling listed them.

Derringdo, I think your "O.K. Corral" thing is a stretch, though I haven't seen that film in awhile so I can't comment too well.

[dave jenkins]

Groggy, well done. My hat, if I had one, would be off to you.

The interesting thing about _Pursued_ is that although it doesn't seem to be quoted in OUATITW, it most definitely is referenced in Death Rides a Horse.

We have a whole lot of classic westerns arriving on DVD soon, so we'll all get a chance to turn up other references, I'm sure. I'm particularly looking forward to seeing _Jubal_ in anamorphic widescreen............

[dave jenkins]

Warlock suposedly referenced by Cheyenne's search for his mother.

The big problem here is that Frayling never bothers to sell us on the idea of Cheyenne's search for his mother. A couple of references to her constitutes a "search"? Not in my book. Needless to say, without such a fanciful reading, there is nothing to connect OUATITW with Warlock (except maybe for the presence of Fonda in both films).

[cigar joe]

Where are you getting Jubal from?

[Groggy]

Where are you getting Jubal from?

I'm citing Frayling, that's why I put in one of the "questionable" categories.  Frayling said that Cheyenne's line about patting Jill's backside was from that.  I haven't personally seen "Jubal", which is why I can't confirm it.  If you have, you probably have more authority to comment than I do.

[Groggy]

The big problem here is that Frayling never bothers to sell us on the idea of Cheyenne's search for his mother. A couple of references to her constitutes a "search"? Not in my book. Needless to say, without such a fanciful reading, there is nothing to connect OUATITW with Warlock (except maybe for the presence of Fonda in both films).

As I said above, I also think that this could be in part of the fact that Leone cited "Warlock" as one of his favorite films.  While the "Liberty Valance" references, as relatively vague as they are, can be pretty well confirmed, I see virtually nothing to connect "Warlock" to OUATITW, except that Leone was a fan.  So, go figure.

[dave jenkins]

Frayling said that Cheyenne's line about patting Jill's backside was from that.  I haven't personally seen "Jubal", which is why I can't confirm it.  If you have, you probably have more authority to comment than I do.

I have seen Jubal, just once. There is a bit about Borgnine slapping his wife's backside as a mark of affection, but Ford puts him straight about his wife not liking it. I don't recall Ernie making any remark about the practice, he does it more or less unthinkingly. The fanny slapping is supposed to be an indicator of how boorish Ernie is. Needless to say, this is exactly the opposite of the way the activity is presented in OUATITW.

Perhaps Leone was not quoting from Jubal as such, but was responding to Glenn Ford's representation of gentlemanly virtues with a male Italian's take on the subject.