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: Sight & Sound Polls 2022  ( 1557 )
noodles_leone
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« #30 : December 09, 2022, 02:25:53 AM »

I'm not sympathetic at all with people judging movies purely on moral grounds but my point is you're not wrong, you're overreacting. Most of the list is fine and very much consensual. For instance: you're pissed off with #1 and I am with #30, but do you have any issue whatsoever with #2 to #29?


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« #31 : December 09, 2022, 08:53:17 AM »

I'm not sympathetic at all with people judging movies purely on moral grounds but my point is you're not wrong, you're overreacting. Most of the list is fine and very much consensual. For instance: you're pissed off with #1 and I am with #30, but do you have any issue whatsoever with #2 to #29?

If we know that people are voting based on political views and not based on the best movies, yes, the whole list is suspect. Even if the list is mostly comprised of great movies. Because it is certain that the rankings are affected by this. A great movie that is at e.g. number 2 or number 20 might have been at #1 or #10, or #3 or #30, if people had voted based on which movies are best. And it necessarily means that movies that deserve to be on the list are not, or are lower than they should be. As soon as I know that people are not entirely motivated by what movie is best, this list becomes bullshit.


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noodles_leone
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« #32 : December 09, 2022, 09:43:05 AM »

If we know that people are voting based on political views and not based on the best movies, yes, the whole list is suspect. Even if the list is mostly comprised of great movies. Because it is certain that the rankings are affected by this. A great movie that is at e.g. number 2 or number 20 might have been at #1 or #10, or #3 or #30, if people had voted based on which movies are best. And it necessarily means that movies that deserve to be on the list are not, or are lower than they should be. As soon as I know that people are not entirely motivated by what movie is best, this list becomes bullshit.

"best" is such an imprecise notion everywhere but in art even more so that nobody has the same definition (and most people don't even try to define the notion before voting). So you're freaking out because for some people it means "politicaly right", but there are many other definitions that would make you freak out even more and that have been counted in the previous lists too. Think of it like a presidential election: people vote for weird reasons, they always did and always will. And nobody think an election or a movie list are gospell, we all know they are fundamentally impure, deeply flawed.

Here are a few weird reasons some film critics say a film is in their top 10 and have nothing to do with PC culture:
- Loved it as a kid, got me into cinema (eventhough i would never watch it nowadays)
- Everybody says it's great so I'll put it in the list to look like a serious film critic (that one, to me, is the biggest flaw of every movie list ever)
- I saw it last week so right now it's much higher in my ranking than it was 2 months ago and will be two months from now, I just don't know that yet
- I hate PC culture so I'll say Gone With The Wind is the best movie ever eventhough I have never seen it
- ...

I usually include influence of a movie in my ratings/ranking. Which makes a lot of people go crazy because this isn't what they call the "best movies". I think they are crazy. They think I'm crazy. Controling the polical correctness of a movie isn't different at all. The fact that CK and Vertigo ACTUALLY are some of the greatest movies ever, do you really think their ranking has only to do with their qualities? How many of the people who vote in these lists have seen Vertigo or Citizen Kane in the last 3 or even 5 years? Either the list always was bullshit or it isn't now. So yeah you're overreacting.

« : December 09, 2022, 09:57:04 AM noodles_leone »

drinkanddestroy
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« #33 : December 09, 2022, 10:17:59 AM »

"best" is such an imprecise notion everywhere but in art even more so that nobody has the same definition (and most people don't even try to define the notion before voting). So you're freaking out because for some people it means "politicaly right", but there are many other definitions that would make you freak out even more and that have been counted in the previous lists too. Think of it like a presidential election: people vote for weird reasons, they always did and always will. And nobody think an election or a movie list are gospell, we all know they are fundamentally impure, deeply flawed.

Here are a few weird reasons some film critics say a film is in their top 10 and have nothing to do with PC culture:
- Loved it as a kid, got me into cinema (eventhough i would never watch it nowadays)
- Everybody says it's great so I'll put it in the list to look like a serious film critic (that one, to me, is the biggest flaw of every movie list ever)
- I saw it last week so right now it's much higher in my ranking than it was 2 months ago and will be two months from now, I just don't know that yet
- I hate PC culture so I'll say Gone With The Wind is the best movie ever eventhough I have never seen it
- ...

I usually include influence of a movie in my ratings/ranking. Which makes a lot of people go crazy because this isn't what they call the "best movies". I think they are crazy. They think I'm crazy. Controling the polical correctness of a movie isn't different at all. The fact that CK and Vertigo ACTUALLY are some of the greatest movies ever, do you really think their ranking has only to do with their qualities? How many of the people who vote in these lists have seen Vertigo or Citizen Kane in the last 3 or even 5 years? Either the list always was bullshit or it isn't now. So yeah you're overreacting.

this is an old debate we have had about what constitutes best movie. Roger Ebert said when someone asks him what is the best movie, he says CK, but when someone asks him which movie he enjoys the most, he says Casablanca. Fine. I know that not everyone has the same definition. Some people focus on artistic achievement, others focus purely on what they enjoy (I am in the latter camp). "Influential" is another criteria people use. Fine. There are a variety of legitimate definitions of "greatest."

But here is a definition that is completely illegitimate: George Floyd was unjustifiably killed, blacks are suffering from systemic racism, black lives matter, so I want to send a message to the world and rank race-conscious films as the greatest of all time. That is bullshit.

if the people ranking e.g., Killer of Sheep or Do the Right Thing as one of the top 10 greatest movies of all time because they truly feel that way, based on their enjoyment of it or artistic achievement, great. But if they are doing it because they want to send a message, that's bullshit.

I haven't bothered to review the 2012 or 2002 or 1992 lists now, but if these race-conscious movies were not ranked that high on those lists and just shot up now, it's obviously due to BLM and people trying to send a message.


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« #34 : December 09, 2022, 10:38:11 AM »

For me actually my favourite films are also what I would call best films, cause in the end the criteria for "best" can only come from my way of thinking. But of course it is my subjective view, cause everything is subjective, and I accept that others have other ideas. But then we can get an interesting consensus if enough contribute.

Whatever, I would prefer it if they just asked for the favourite films, and not for the "greatest", and leaves it to everyone how to define what "greatest" means. So some will always have named films they don't really enjoy, and this year it is I assume pretty likely that some felt obliged to name films directed by women and by black people.


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« #35 : December 09, 2022, 11:46:46 AM »

this is an old debate we have had about what constitutes best movie. Roger Ebert said when someone asks him what is the best movie, he says CK, but when someone asks him which movie he enjoys the most, he says Casablanca. Fine. I know that not everyone has the same definition. Some people focus on artistic achievement, others focus purely on what they enjoy (I am in the latter camp). "Influential" is another criteria people use. Fine. There are a variety of legitimate definitions of "greatest."

But here is a definition that is completely illegitimate: George Floyd was unjustifiably killed, blacks are suffering from systemic racism, black lives matter, so I want to send a message to the world and rank race-conscious films as the greatest of all time. That is bullshit.

if the people ranking e.g., Killer of Sheep or Do the Right Thing as one of the top 10 greatest movies of all time because they truly feel that way, based on their enjoyment of it or artistic achievement, great. But if they are doing it because they want to send a message, that's bullshit.

I haven't bothered to review the 2012 or 2002 or 1992 lists now, but if these race-conscious movies were not ranked that high on those lists and just shot up now, it's obviously due to BLM and people trying to send a message.

"Political consciousness" in a film is a criteria just like "influential" or "enjoyment". It doesn't have to be about sending a message. It sometimes is. I don't think "Do the right thing" is often used to send a message in 2022. Portrait of a Lady on Fire, maybe so...


dave jenkins
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« #36 : December 23, 2022, 07:38:32 AM »

Polls made by individual directors: https://www.worldofreel.com/blog/2022/12/8ac360v6wlga1zf2dfozjfs5r7oihc



"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
dave jenkins
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« #37 : December 23, 2022, 04:53:46 PM »

Now Variety has published their own list: https://variety.com/lists/best-movies-of-all-time/



"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
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« #38 : December 24, 2022, 05:52:33 PM »

Polls made by individual directors: https://www.worldofreel.com/blog/2022/12/8ac360v6wlga1zf2dfozjfs5r7oihc
And the winner is . . .
Quote
Martin McDonagh

Days of Heaven
A Matter of Life and Death
Badlands
Taxi Driver
The Godfather
Seven Samurai
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
The Night of the Hunter
Citizen Kane
The Wild Bunch



"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
drinkanddestroy
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« #39 : December 25, 2022, 01:49:20 AM »

Now Variety has published their own list: https://variety.com/lists/best-movies-of-all-time/

TITANIC is #45? Why not #1?


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« #40 : January 02, 2023, 07:13:09 AM »

The Variety list is not surprisingly more leaning towards Hollywood related films.

With some pretty odd choices. Since when have Bridesmaids and My Best Friends Wedding a high reputation? And where's that Shawshank thing when you don't need it?

But there are also some choices close to my likings, which are not featured in the S&S top 100, like Natural Born Killers, Pulp Fiction, Le samourai, Notorious (Hitch's best) or an Almodovar film (but far away from his best ones).

2 westerns with Stagecoach at # 34 and The Wild Bunch at # 41, but no Sergio no Searchers no Rio Bravo


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« #41 : January 17, 2023, 03:46:28 PM »

Lmao.  It not a poll anymore.

titoli
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« #42 : January 17, 2023, 04:40:24 PM »

I don't have watched this list and won't. But there's another list which is maybe even more ridiculous and that is much talked about these days:the best singers list by RS. Now, the fact that now you don't have to buy this shut but can check it online doesn't mean you have to take it seriously. People doing this shut are not qualified or are simply paid to make it. The one in RS has Sinatra (sr, not jr) at n. 19. So there are 18 singers better than OBE. Not one or two (which would be understandable). 18 singers better than Sinatra. But apparently americans like this kind of shut and take it seriously.


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« #43 : January 17, 2023, 05:05:10 PM »

Only 18? That's ridiculous ... why not 118? Which would be understandable ...

... but this happens if you things can't buy.

« : January 17, 2023, 05:07:13 PM stanton »

titoli
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« #44 : January 18, 2023, 04:50:32 AM »


... but this happens if you things can't buy.

Like clarity of expression, for example.


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