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: Which is the best Leone film?
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There is no best Leone film, they're all as good as eachother!   -1 (8.3%)
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: THE BEST LEONE FILM?  ( 7866 )
Rashomon
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« : February 21, 2005, 01:40:52 PM »

Well, it's probably been done before....

....I'm votin' for OOATITW

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« #1 : February 21, 2005, 04:50:48 PM »

OUATIA

dave jenkins
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« #2 : February 21, 2005, 08:06:47 PM »

On the surface, this would appear a question without a solution. One may have a favorite film directed by Leone, but how can you say that one is better than another? Doesn't it just come down to a question of personal taste?

But let's take a look at the question again. It does not ask us to identify "the best film directed by Sergio Leone," rather, "the best Leone film." Call me a pedantic nut, but I see a world of difference between the two.

A Leone film has certain qualities that set it apart from films made by other directors. Those qualities can be identified, enumerated. Films that are deficient in those qualities can be considered "lesser" Leones, and discounted. A process of elimination will therefore produce a "best" Leone.

Immediately it occurs that OUATIA is too dissimilar to the Master's other films to stay in the running. It is not a Western, it is exclusively about criminals, it was not shot in 'scope. It does no good to counter that it is a work of unparalleled genius; to be the "best" Leone film a candidate must first be a "Leone" film.

Let us turn to OUATITW: many feel this is the best film ever made. But a film may be the best ever made and still not be a "Leone" film. And in fact, OUATITW is not a "Leone" film because Leone made Spaghetti Westerns and OUATITW is an amalgam of Spaghetti and Hollywood conventions. It is impossible for Monument Valley to appear in a "Leone" film.

Well, what about GBU? This is a perfect movie, a perfection that is in no way diluted by the addition of extra scenes in the recent restoration. But is it a "Leone"? Where, I ask you, are the flashbacks?

We are now down to FOD, FFDM, and DYS. FOD can be eliminated for being a remake. How shall we choose between FFDM and DYS, then? By asking a simple question: which of the two has the more interesting characters, which of the two provides a more interesting example of male friendship?

The answer: DYS.

Q.E.D.



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« #3 : February 21, 2005, 08:52:12 PM »

Hmm, that was a very good analyses. I haven't seen DYS yet(I don't believe in pan&scan or butchered versions upon my first viewing, so it's the upcoming DVD release for me!)

But when I think about it, FFDM does have everything that the other films have all in one. Even though I've watched it more than I can count, it's actually my least favorite Leone film. But I'm optimistic that the anamorphic, stereo, restored version coming out is going to grab me by the poggles!

The thing that I feel is lacking with FFDM is that the score really is the least memorable and it doesn't paint a very unique picture like the others do. Sometimes I feel like I'm listening to alternate versions of the FOD score. Though too fancy of a score wasn't appropriate for that time in Leone's career, so that would've been too much I think if it was like OUATITW.

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« #4 : February 21, 2005, 10:45:12 PM »

Some good points, which strengthen my argument. The music for DYS is better than the music for FFDM (in fact, the DYS soundtrack is probably my fave by Morricone), another reason to choose DYS as the best Leone.



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« #5 : February 22, 2005, 03:40:52 AM »

On the surface, this would appear a question without a solution. One may have a favorite film directed by Leone, but how can you say that one is better than another? Doesn't it just come down to a question of personal taste?

But let's take a look at the question again. It does not ask us to identify "the best film directed by Sergio Leone," rather, "the best Leone film." Call me a pedantic nut, but I see a world of difference between the two.

A Leone film has certain qualities that set it apart from films made by other directors. Those qualities can be identified, enumerated. Films that are deficient in those qualities can be considered "lesser" Leones, and discounted. A process of elimination will therefore produce a "best" Leone.

Immediately it occurs that OUATIA is too dissimilar to the Master's other films to stay in the running. It is not a Western, it is exclusively about criminals, it was not shot in 'scope. It does no good to counter that it is a work of unparalleled genius; to be the "best" Leone film a candidate must first be a "Leone" film.

Let us turn to OUATITW: many feel this is the best film ever made. But a film may be the best ever made and still not be a "Leone" film. And in fact, OUATITW is not a "Leone" film because Leone made Spaghetti Westerns and OUATITW is an amalgam of Spaghetti and Hollywood conventions. It is impossible for Monument Valley to appear in a "Leone" film.

Well, what about GBU? This is a perfect movie, a perfection that is in no way diluted by the addition of extra scenes in the recent restoration. But is it a "Leone"? Where, I ask you, are the flashbacks?

We are now down to FOD, FFDM, and DYS. FOD can be eliminated for being a remake. How shall we choose between FFDM and DYS, then? By asking a simple question: which of the two has the more interesting characters, which of the two provides a more interesting example of male friendship?

The answer: DYS.

Q.E.D.

That is a pretty pompous pseudo-analysis. You are treating your own ideas about what constitutes a "Leone" film as given facts. Well, they are your "facts" and lets try to keep em there, coz I don't want to subscripe to them.

Likewise your own interpretations of what is important criteria. More than that, you remove any concept of feeling from the meaning of a good Leone movie and .. and the appearance of Monument Valley makes you rule out OUATIW... jeeez. I think the master would be pretty disturbed by the "fact" that OUATIA is not a "Leone" movie. It most certainly is - directors are allowed to move in new directions. OUATIA is SO Leone.

I am sorry but your arguments don't even aspire to being purist - they are just plain wrong and represents a simplified misconception of Leone.

I might just as well say: DYS is the first we'll have to rule out, it has so many things that are different from the rest of the Leone batch:

It takes place in Mexico, there is a revolution, it's political, he wasn't even going to direct in in the first place, its not a western blah blah blah. Uninteresting. It's Leone anyway, like the rest of them. None of his movies could have been directed by any other in the same way.

QED


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« #6 : February 22, 2005, 06:40:54 AM »

this is the point i was making in website announcements...this poll has been done 100 times before, its just a waste of time. just look in general discussion


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Rashomon
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« #7 : February 22, 2005, 01:28:18 PM »

Stop moaning. It's a predictibale poll, But maybe predictable posts like this show the increasing boredom of people on this site. Or maybe it's just a way for new members to stretch their legs and get accostomed to the site. Or maybe, it's simply a matter of interest.
Whatever it is, it's not harming you in any way so I don't see why you should be so opposed to it.
Your point, as all points, is valid of consideration, but has no bounds or support. All I see is one person trying to turn this into a buiseness meeting, while it should be a site of speculation and conversation!   

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« #8 : February 22, 2005, 02:21:41 PM »

I think the best is GBU.  OUTITW is artistically more accomplished, but too much so in my opinion.  I think GBU has more of an entertainment factor, without compromising the quality of the film-making.  And to me at least a good film has to be entertaining.

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« #9 : February 22, 2005, 03:46:36 PM »

im sorry if i sound miserable all the time im not always like this. its just when uve been here a while things tend to get repeated.


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« #10 : February 23, 2005, 01:16:55 PM »

Stop moaning. It's a predictibale poll, But maybe predictable posts like this show the increasing boredom of people on this site. Or maybe it's just a way for new members to stretch their legs and get accostomed to the site. Or maybe, it's simply a matter of interest.
Whatever it is, it's not harming you in any way so I don't see why you should be so opposed to it.
Your point, as all points, is valid of consideration, but has no bounds or support. All I see is one person trying to turn this into a buiseness meeting, while it should be a site of speculation and conversation!   
Yes, but when the exact same thread already does exist, why create a new one, when you can simply add your opinion to the existing thread? There's no need for another one, really...


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« #11 : February 23, 2005, 10:12:04 PM »

That is a pretty pompous pseudo-analysis. You are treating your own ideas about what constitutes a "Leone" film as given facts. Well, they are your "facts" and lets try to keep em there, coz I don't want to subscripe to them.

Likewise your own interpretations of what is important criteria. More than that, you remove any concept of feeling from the meaning of a good Leone movie and .. and the appearance of Monument Valley makes you rule out OUATIW... jeeez. I think the master would be pretty disturbed by the "fact" that OUATIA is not a "Leone" movie. It most certainly is - directors are allowed to move in new directions. OUATIA is SO Leone.

I am sorry but your arguments don't even aspire to being purist - they are just plain wrong and represents a simplified misconception of Leone.

I might just as well say: DYS is the first we'll have to rule out, it has so many things that are different from the rest of the Leone batch:

It takes place in Mexico, there is a revolution, it's political, he wasn't even going to direct in in the first place, its not a western blah blah blah. Uninteresting. It's Leone anyway, like the rest of them. None of his movies could have been directed by any other in the same way.

QED
Hmmmm, where's your spirit of play?

If your objection is that my criteria for a Leone film is arbitrary, this is too obvious to need stating. I have led with a provocation, hoping to hear competing theories built on other criteria, no less arbitrary.

If your objection is that this is an empty game not worth playing, it is rather mean-spirited to mention it. Of course there is no way to *really* choose between Leone's films, but that's the game we're playing. If you do not want to play, fine, but why spoil it for others? Fault my analysis all you want, but at least offer an alternative analysis in its place. Which IS the best Leone film and why?



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« #12 : February 24, 2005, 03:46:04 AM »

Blueberry, dave's got a point, its all arbitrary, and its all personal opinon, and we're inevitably going to get new board members that post repetative threads, its all part of the game.

For me each film has an outstanding sequence or series of sequences that form the core or heart of the piece.

I like to be amused and I like to laugh so I'll allways be predisposed toward the MWNN trilogy and of those GBU. Those are my personal core criteria.

We can be serious and we can have fun.



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Rashomon
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« #13 : February 24, 2005, 09:41:00 AM »

too true, cigar joe, but weren't you one of the people who were against "leoneisthegreatest..." messin around....

i mean:
its all part of the game.

Quote
We can be serious and we can have fun.

.... i'm not tryin to aggrevate things, it's just that this seems like a dilemma facing this board at the moment; have fun or be serious...?

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« #14 : February 24, 2005, 09:57:48 AM »

i think theres a case of elitism from us established stars, cigar joe and david aaronson, i think we need to give these newbies some slack.

Sorry newbies, we'll cheer up, we're not usually this dour, lol  ;D


Dave Jenkins, Calder Benson, Jim Cooper, Chuck Youngblood. They were all alive until they met you, Frank.
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