John Wayne as Frank?

[Groggy]

Jill's the one who brought politics into this discussion, but anyway. . .

Let me just say this and clear the air:

Communism is a completely ridiculous idea. Period. Even the argument that it is "great on paper" is shoddy at best. I mean the idea of anarchy, no government whatsoever and people living in harmony, is great "on paper" - but how long do you think it would last in reality. Even fascism/Nazism is "on paper" a great idea - I mean what's wrong with sacrificing yourself for the sake of your country and making it stronger? So enough of that stupid canard.

There is no friggin' way to achieve absolute equality, and quite frankly the advocates of Communism - Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Castro, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, whoever the hell else you want to name - didn't even try. It's hard to say Stalin, Mao, or even the allegedly idealistic Castro and Lenin cared about anything other than pure personal power. Even in theory, Communism absolutely fails to take into account human nature and the needs of individual humans, regarding people as a malleable mass that serves as playthings to be manipulated by a "superior" class.

If you think Communism is a great idea, ask the 100 million people dead in the USSR, Eastern Europe, Africa, and Southeast Asia how fucking great of an idea it is. Communism is the absolute opposite of liberalism, because unlike true liberalism, it regards people as a mass of objects to manipulate for political, social, and economic ends. True liberals, in the Western sense at least, regard people as essentially virtuous creatures who are intelligent and generally good, means in themselves, not means to an end, to paraphrase Kant. Capitalism isn't perfect, surely, but it is definitely preferable to the alternative - or at least, this alternative.

All political systems, in the end, serve those in power more than anyone else. Some systems are better than others, but there will always be someone abusing the other.

[dave jenkins]

Excellent post, Groggy. I have nothing to add, but this guy does:

People that read books go to people who don't read books and say, "The time has come for change. . . " So the poor people make the change. The people who read the books sit around big polished tables and talk and talk and eat. But what has happened to the poor people? They are dead! That's your revolution. So please, don't tell me about revolutions.

[Whalestoe]

Groggy speaks the truth.

On another note, honestly... if in communism everyone is treated the same, everyone is payed the same (ideally), everyone is the same - then why would anyone want to be a doctor or scientists... I mean, you're just gonna make the same amount as custodians, so what's the point of trying?

If Capitalism does one thing right, it should make you strive to be the best - otherwise you're fucked. Well, actually, it doesn't seem to be that way lately...

[Groggy]

Very apt quote, Dave.

[moviesceleton]

Of MFing course communism is impossible idea. I just said so in my last post and also said that it's the reason why I'm not for communism. It could work in small communities, with only tens or hundreds people, not in bigger scale.

Capitalism is great system for the strong ones who have the strenght to survive. But what about the weak, poor and sick ones? They are human beings too. That someone is weak doesn't mean that he/she isn't  as valuable as the winners. They deserve the same benefits as everyone else. On the other hand, the prevailing western system pushes people to the edge of insanity: they work their asses off because if they don't, they are nobodies. And at the same time Asians are working their asses off that you could see your rare favorite movie on new, nice, shiny DVD with superb extras. And they don't get paid a shit if even at all! capitalism doesn't work as it is supposed to, either. The idea is that the ones who work harder get more money, right? Well, it's not happening as long as Asians do hard 16 hour workdays just to get food and water and some clothes.   

I see Whaletoe's point, and good point that is. I can't solve that problem.

As Aki Kaurismäki has said, as soon as every Asian wants a refrigerator, modern society and the whole environment, Earth, is gonna collapse.

We are doomed!    

[SeanSeanSean]

John Wayne as Frank? Sorry I can't imagine that.
Henry Fonda was at the time, the ultimate father figure. Even though in real life his parenting skills were lacking. To portray him as a cold blooded child  killer was a stroke of genius.
Wayne was already a hard boiled character. The leep to this level would not have been as dramatic as Fonda's. Wayne would'nt have had the guts to tarnish his rightous image with such a character.
Finally, Wayne did'nt have Fonda's acting range.

[Tucumcari Bound]

John Wayne as Frank? Sorry I can't imagine that.
Henry Fonda was at the time, the ultimate father figure. Even though in real life his parenting skills were lacking. To portray him as a cold blooded child  killer was a stroke of genius.
Wayne was already a hard boiled character. The leep to this level would not have been as dramatic as Fonda's. Wayne would'nt have had the guts to tarnish his rightous image with such a character.
Finally, Wayne did'nt have Fonda's acting range.

John Wayne as Frank is definitely imaginable! John Wayne was more of the GOOD GUY type than Henry Fonda. It would have been even more shocking.

Also, it's not a matter of Wayne tarnishing an image. This is acting, and this is what actors do. Wayne just didn't like this type of western.

[SeanSeanSean]

In Hollywood movies, there are actors and movie stars and some in the middle.
Actors hone their craft from flim to film. Rarely do they play the same type of character. Pacino, DeNiro and Brando are good examples.
Movie stars have a persona that they adapt to the film they are in. Wayne and Nicholson are examples. John Wayne played John Wayne in most of his films.
Fonda was somewhere in the middle, like Bogart. IMHO.

[Tucumcari Bound]

In Hollywood movies, there are actors and movie stars and some in the middle.
Actors hone their craft from flim to film. Rarely do they play the same type of character. Pacino, DeNiro and Brando are good examples.
Movie stars have a persona that they adapt to the film they are in. Wayne and Nicholson are examples. John Wayne played John Wayne in most of his films.
Fonda was somewhere in the middle, like Bogart. IMHO.

Good observations Sean. I agree with you for the most part, but as I've mentioned in previous posts, John Wayne has charisma that sold tickets. Why change a good thing when it works everytime out?

[lovelyrita]

I know I am new to the board and I am enjoying being a part of something like this as everyone is so welcoming and so knowledgeable, I am definitely learning but in saying that I have the funniest feeling that what I am going to say isn't going to be popular.  John Wayne as Frank, no not possible in my eyes. I have always felt that if you have seen one John Wayne movie you have seen them all. Can't say that about Henry Fonda..

[Kurug3n]

I know I am new to the board and I am enjoying being a part of something like this as everyone is so welcoming and so knowledgeable, I am definitely learning but in saying that I have the funniest feeling that what I am going to say isn't going to be popular.  John Wayne as Frank, no not possible in my eyes. I have always felt that if you have seen one John Wayne movie you have seen them all. Can't say that about Henry Fonda..

Welcome and agree 100% on the John Wayne comment

[cigar joe]

Yea I would agree almost, but when he does play against type he can do a good job. 95% of his stuff was same old same old, but there are a few gems.

[Tucumcari Bound]

Yea I would agree almost, but when he does play against type he can do a good job. 95% of his stuff was same old same old, but there are a few gems.

Yes, and I have mentioned before...he could afford to act the same way in most of his films being that's what sold tickets.

[KevinJCBJK]

No doubt the film would have sold tickets if there was any chance that John Wayne was offerened and accepted the role. Then 1968 would have been known as "The Year When Hell Frozed Over."

Nothing beats Henry Fonda as Frank.