Something to do with dubbing

[titoli]

Everybody is entitled to his own opinions, I presume. The fact that an actor has a screen presence doesn't necessarily mean he can play well. Lancaster has a great screen presence, but is either  rather wooden facially or really exaggerating some reactions, like when he smiles showing all his teeth and opening his mouth, which fact has a grating effect on me. He has also little control of his body movements , that he tends to exaggerate. Of course with movies in front of us I could show you what I mean more easily. Like many actors, with age he acquired a little more control and though not arriving at the results of people like Gary Cooper, Bogart, Wayne or Mitchum, that could limit their playing to essentials, he sure was good to watch, expecially in his late westerns.





   

[Belkin]

Good point(s). The same could apply to EASTWOOD as in; Young people I meet and talk to about SW's and EASTWOOD; mostly they will /would say he act's from the neck up and the cigar he chews on is the only attempt he makes at character study! It's all relative and the actor is in the eye of the beholder! Different generations have different screen heroes and I'm just thankful I'm old enough to have seen Clint and Burt in thier first throes and am not waiting for CRUISE or PITT'S next release!

[Blueberry]

The fact is that the original version of Leone's movies is the italian one. The original dialogues are the italian ones. Mickey Knox's are derivatives, made long after the first 3 movies were released (as anybody here should know).

I'm aware, as I wrote, of the special case of many Italian, including Leone, movies. They are a special case since they got the treatment in English before global distribution, not least because of the choice of American actors - who supposedly said their lines in English while filming, while the Italians ones said theirs in Italian. It's quite difficult to achive one perfect dub in one language that way.

Normally, watching Italian movies, I would always prefer watching them in Italian with subtitles - like movies from any other country.

One thing in GBU bugs me soundwise (the one that I can remember now and apart from the grotesque newly added grotto scene): the scene with the prison camp choir and band. The song they sing has absolutely nothing to do with the way the choir members in the background move their mouths - it looks pretty awkward... as does the way the band-members play their instruments compared to the actual song.

One good thing in that scene is the "More feeling!!", dubbed from "Piu forte!" - brillant. But then again, he's up close - and therefore deserved a special effort.  The choir boys are in the background.

[Groggy]

I'm not a big Lancaster fan, but damn it I RESPECT him.  He's one of the greatest actors ever, and one who says he has no talent is clearly ignorant when it comes to matter theatric.  Who's one of your favorite actors - Arnold Schwarzenegger?  Orlando Bloom?

[titoli]

Did I say I don't respect him? I said he has screen presence, but that he can't play well. His first performances are atrocious, in my opinion. he really doesn't know where it's at and, apparently, has no director to illuminate him about it. And I have just found that I'm not alone (with Vittorio Gassman, ever heard of him?) in not considering him a good actor (though an excellent performer). I've just read the review of the Leopard by Dwight MacDonald and speaking of Lancaster performance he talks of "crustacean art": all appearance and no substance.  I don't know if you ever heard of this man (MacDonald, I mean) but I consider myself in very good company.

About the other more recent actors you mention, I barely know the names. I stopped gong regularly to theatres in late '70's. My favourite actors are Mitchum, Bogart, Grant (Cary), Cagney and some europeans you probably don't know anything about. 


 

[spag fan]

I have to admit to not being a big Lancaster fan myself. He usually just doesn't end up convincing me that he's not "acting" if that makes since, especially in westerns.

[Poggle]

I've only seen him in 1900, but I felt like I was watching one of those 60 minute tv show dramas from the 70's everytime he was on screen. At the same time the only decent acting done in that movie was done by De Niro and Depardieu

"Ooh, cocaine, I'd like to try some, let me try some!"

[marmota-b]

To Burt Lancaster: I've seen him only in Local Hero (Brittish comedy from 1983, along with GBU my favourite film) - in that case he's great. Just watch it and you will see. The film is worth it, full of small jokes - if you get all of them, you have to laugh almost all the time, but still it is serious on the other hand. Lancaster is the only well-known actor in it, so if you want to see something very different... I also like the music in it - not as dramatic as Morricone's, but it fits that film. 

To dubbing: I prefer watching films without Czech dubbing, if the original (or English) version is better - and it usually is. Especially in case of FD the only two characters that are dubbed well are Joe and Ramon, while Ramon is better (dubbed by an actor who has one of the most charismatic voices in my opinion; and as far as I can see, it also suits the original.) The rest is just... reading the lines and trying to be impressive, which ends up in crappy results. If you know such dubbings...
The only thing that disturbs me with Joe's Italian dubber is, that he speaks faster than Eastwood, but that's problem of language, not the voice. Though maybe he sounds little bit more cheerful, but it doesn't bother me too much.

[Sanjuro]

In Italian version of OUTIW, does Cardinale speaks her lines with her own voice? Or is her voice dubbed by somebody else also?

If Cardinale speaks her lines, how does she sound comparing to the dubbed voice in English? I'm just curious.

[titoli]

She's dubbed.

[Sanjuro]

She's dubbed.

Thank you for the info, Titoli. That's a bit disappointing. Why was she dubbed even in the original Italian version? Perche?

[titoli]

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=3341.0

[Sanjuro]

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=3341.0

Grazie mille, Titoli. I did't realize that there was a big discussion going on about Cardinale's voice. I also didn't know that her voice was dubbed even in Italian movies. I guess her husky voice with a thick accent wouldn't work for a "poor defenseless widow."

I think that voice-over actress, Joyce Gordon, also dubbed Irina Demick in the english version of "Il Clan Dei Siciliani."

[noodles_leone]

I know almost by heart the English and French versions of any Leone film exept CoR. Sorry, I cannot speak italian at all, which hampers me to see the italian version. Still, in my (very personnal) opinion, the French and English versions are usualy just as GREAT. But they are hard to compare since they are adapted to the humour/mind/culture of the country.

For the French speakers here:
"You see in this world their is 2 kinds of people my friend. Those with loaded gun, and those who dig. You dig."
"Tu vois, le monde se divise en 2 catégories. Ceux qui ont un pistolet chargé, et ceux qui creusent. Toi, tu creuses."
="You see, in this world, there are 2 categories of people. Those who have a loaded gun and those who dig. You, you dig."

Eastwood performs a deeper voice, more threatening and powerful, whereas the French dubber is much more cool and class since "catégorie" is (IMO) more class than its english equivalent "kind". But the French track is adapted to the French humour and the English track to the american humour. Dubbing and translations are sometimes very very very bad, but here the translators made a great work keeping the dilogues like the original ones AND adapting it to the language. The "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk" line is also a very telling example.

The only exeption that comes to my mind is OUATITW: the French version is way better I think. Bronson's performance is boosted, such as Cheyenne's one. But no one can do better than Fonda: this guy is just EXCELLENT, PERFECT. WHich is why I'm still in love with the English version of OUATITW:)

More generaly, I'm not a backer of original versions at all. I always prefer to see both versions before telling "I prefer this one". I know by experience that any Tarantino movie cannot be seen in French without losing half of the interest of the movie: even if the dubbing is good, it is only american humour and spirit, it cannot be translated. It HAS to sound American:)

[cigar joe]

Nice translation and thanks a lot for the versions explained, any more changes in dialog let us known.