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: Something to do with dubbing  ( 20549 )
titoli
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« : August 04, 2005, 02:50:44 PM »

I have started watching, for the first time in my life, FFDM and GBU in english. It is fun to think that Eli Wallach's voice isn't up (as it was to be expected) to his italian counterpart, the great Carlo Romano (who will also dub Cheyenne and Juan). Tuco is a more rounded character in the italian version of the movie: the different voice's shades Romano is able to confer to Tuco are nowhere to be found in the US version, where Wallach sports a quite undistinguished whining. Van Cleef italian voice is more deep and profound than his own, giving to Mortimer more authority and making Sentenza more redoutable (The voice was the one used for Gary Cooper also, if I remember well). Strangely enough, Eastwood comes off the best, as he keeps very well to the delivery of the italian version, as already noted in the Frayling's book.
Also to be noted are some lines that were unexplicably changed in the english translation. For example, when Mortimer asks the barman where Calloway is, the italian reply is "Lo sa il cielo" (Heaven knows) which in the english  version is rendered by a more generical answer.


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« #1 : August 04, 2005, 03:30:58 PM »

Ma va.............


titoli
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« #2 : August 04, 2005, 04:52:06 PM »

...cci tu.


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« #3 : August 05, 2005, 04:44:45 AM »

...co


It's class.
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« #4 : August 05, 2005, 06:48:24 AM »

Molto interessante
 
Now I would have to state the contrary opinion.  I've listened to some of the Italian dub on the DVD and the voices are quite jarring.  We're accustomed to LVC, Wallach & Eastwood in their own tongue, and it seems completely artificial to hear them dubbed, it doesn't seem true to the character at all. 

LVC has a tenor voice in English, but they give him a baritone in the dub.  YOu don't need to drop AngelEye's voice an octave to make him menacing, actually it's scarier having him as a tenor because his voice is so normal.  His delivery is very calm and unmelodramatic, but it's the way he phrases things - like the hissing of a snake - is what makes him so evil.  You don't need him trumpeting like an opera singer to make you sweat.

I think Wallach nailed Tuco, the whining is part of the character.  Tuco is always a couple of chess moves behind Blondie and AngelEyes, so of course he's always frustrated and always whining.  I don't think shading Tuco is true to the character, he's pure Id and all action - to try and convey a deep, reflective inner life for Tuco by shading his voice is out of character.

The voice and the face and eyes are all of a piece.  You always lose something in the dub - unless it's the heroic job done by the dude who did Ramone & Indio for Volonte  ;)


And what if your hand should shake a little?  And that Gringo so fast on the draw.
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« #5 : August 05, 2005, 02:57:31 PM »

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We're accustomed to LVC, Wallach & Eastwood in their own tongue, and it seems completely artificial to hear them dubbed, it doesn't seem true to the character at all.


True. But the same works for italian viewers listening to foreign actors speaking with their own voices. Actually, from an historical point of view,  I think italian (and european) viewers were the first ones to "listen" to LVC play. I don't think many american viewers were able, in 1965, to tell what the LVC's voice (or face) was like.

Quote
LVC has a tenor voice in English, but they give him a baritone in the dub.  YOu don't need to drop AngelEye's voice an octave to make him menacing, actually it's scarier having him as a tenor because his voice is so normal.  His delivery is very calm and unmelodramatic, but it's the way he phrases things - like the hissing of a snake - is what makes him so evil.  You don't need him trumpeting like an opera singer to make you sweat.

You are forgetting that Sentenza is speaking with the same voice as Mortimer, where the italian voice amplifies the good qualities of the character. Having that voice be put to service of the same figure playing a bad character has an effect like having Fonda playing Frank. 

Quote
I think Wallach nailed Tuco, the whining is part of the character.  Tuco is always a couple of chess moves behind Blondie and AngelEyes, so of course he's always frustrated and always whining.


Here's where we disagree. Tuco is not a blockhead, far from it. He can trace Il biondo (twice!) and could dispose of him were it not for Carson appearance; he also disposes of phisically superior Brega and of Mullock (twice). He is fast getting on to Carson's revelations. Sure, he has some comic traits: that is what render him the most complex character of the three and the most interesting. But it is this complexity that is not adequately served by Wallach monotonous voice. He is unable to slip from comdic to dramatic in the same phrase which really renders the character so fascinating. Actually I wonder how english-speaking listeners can appreciate the character given these rather heavy limitations.     


Quote
I don't think shading Tuco is true to the character, he's pure Id and all action - to try and convey a deep, reflective inner life for Tuco by shading his voice is out of character.

Then what is the brother's episode there for? And the dialogue with Blondie on the coach?

Quote
The voice and the face and eyes are all of a piece.  You always lose something in the dub - unless it's the heroic job done by the dude who did Ramone & Indio for Volonte

Agreed. Gazzolo is great voice (though not a great figure and, mostly, face). Still it would have been interesting listening to the approach Volontè (himself a great voice) would have had with Indio (not with Ramon). I think it could have been even better than Gazzolo. With Gazzolo (and Salerno for Eastwood, of course) Leone played safe: they were top voices. Still I'm sure Volontè would have made Indio a more complex character. But of course, from a economical point of view, to change the winning formula of the first movie would have been madness.

« : August 05, 2005, 03:01:08 PM titoli »

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« #6 : August 05, 2005, 07:55:34 PM »

If you want to hear one of the worst English dubs - Try 1900. The main worker sounds like he comes from Texas.

Have you tried watching OUATIA in English yet?

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« #7 : August 05, 2005, 08:40:30 PM »

Yes, I have watched OUTA in english. But as I don't like the movie, it makes little difference.


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« #8 : August 06, 2005, 04:21:41 AM »


Here's where we disagree. Tuco is not a blockhead, far from it. He can trace Il biondo (twice!) and could dispose of him were it not for Carson appearance; he also disposes of phisically superior Brega and of Mullock (twice). He is fast getting on to Carson's revelations. Sure, he has some comic traits: that is what render him the most complex character of the three and the most interesting. But it is this complexity that is not adequately served by Wallach monotonous voice. He is unable to slip from comdic to dramatic in the same phrase which really renders the character so fascinating. Actually I wonder how english-speaking listeners can appreciate the character given these rather heavy limitations.     


Then what is the brother's episode there for? And the dialogue with Blondie on the coach?

Tuco is a member of Mensa eh?  Then how do you explain the "Idi...Idi...Idi... - Idiots, it's for you" scene?   Going into the final showdown with no bullets in his gun? 

 Sure he's clever, but the movie makes it very clear that he's always a step behind Blondie and AE.  The scene with brother Ramirez and the coach dialogue is meant to convey that he's NOT a complete buffoon - but buffoonery is definitely his defining trait.  Wallach plays (hams) that up, but what the hell that's the character.


And what if your hand should shake a little?  And that Gringo so fast on the draw.
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« #9 : August 08, 2005, 04:54:22 AM »

It's funny the way every country that dubs movies claim they have the "best" actors for the job, and that their linguistic version of actors is  better than the actors themselves. In that case we have German, Franch, Italian, Spanish etc. versions of legendary actors that are presumably "better" than the original. Rubbish. The original is the original. de Niro is always best as de Niro, Pacino is always best as Pacino, and so on.

I'll admit that the Italian films are a bit different, since they are all dubbed, as originals. But, as I've said before, as a cineast, the original is the only thing - and MANY smaller EUROPEAN COUNTRIES SHOW ORIGINAL VERSIONS IN THE CINEMAS!!! SUBTITLED!! AND THAT'S THE WAY WE WANT IT - WITH THE ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK - we don't want some Danish version of Lee Van Cleef, Wallach or Eastwood, or JET LI, for that matter - how ridiculous would that be? Nope, no way josé.


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« #10 : August 08, 2005, 06:11:39 AM »

The fact is that the original version of Leone's movies is the italian one. The original dialogues are the italian ones. Mickey Knox's are derivatives, made long after the first 3 movies were released (as anybody here should know). If you want to enjoy  the movies as they were conceived by the author, you have to watch the italian versions.  Maybe a case can be made (but I don't care to, as I don't like the movie anyway) only for OUATIA.

By the way, here is some italian dubber for Leone:

Eastwood:  http://www.antoniogenna.net/doppiaggio/voci/vociems.htm

Volontè: http://www.antoniogenna.net/doppiaggio/voci/vocingaz.htm

Wallach:
http://www.antoniogenna.net/doppiaggio/voci/vocicrom.htm

 


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« #11 : August 08, 2005, 06:23:00 AM »

here's the complete list of voices for GBU.

http://www.antoniogenna.net/doppiaggio/film/ilbuonoilbruttoilcattivo.htm

Noteworthy that even italian actors are dubbed by other voices. And some of the italian actors who submitted to this treatment (like Giuffré, Lorenzon, Pistilli) sure didn't need any, as they have distinguished voices of their own and had a long career in theatre, TV and movies. Clear that Leone orchestrated voices like he orchestrated faces.



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« #12 : August 08, 2005, 12:00:04 PM »

This is like Visconti's The Leopard.  I feel that the Italian dub given to The Leopard is much better the Lancasters original voice.

Re-Leone films I'm used to them in English and will carry on watching them in English. It seems strange that all the characters of an American town would speak Italian (but Hollywood have always changed German and Italian speakers into English therefore it cancels my argument out)


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« #13 : August 08, 2005, 01:32:16 PM »

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This is like Visconti's The Leopard.  I feel that the Italian dub given to The Leopard is much better the Lancasters original voice.

I can't remember specifically, and I never heard Lancaster's (not a very good actor, in my opinion) original voice, but you can bet on it, since you have a choice of the better voice which goes with the actor and the character. Expecially as the character in the movie speaks not pure italian but a sicilian-tinged italian.


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« #14 : August 08, 2005, 04:18:04 PM »

LANCASTER NOT A VERY GOOD ACTOR????? Are we watching the same performer, my friend? COME BACK LITTLE SHEBA! FROM HERE TO ETERNITY! SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS! ELMER GANTRY! BIRDMAN OF ALCATRAZ! THE KILLERS! KISS THE BLOOD OF MY HANDS! THE RAINMAKER! SEVEN DAYS IN MAY! THE PROFESSIONALS! THE SWIMMER! ATLANTIC CITY! To name but a few! As the man himself might say A-HA-A-HA!  :)


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