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: Animal training / cruelty  ( 10203 )
columba
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« : May 24, 2006, 04:45:06 AM »

When did the laws regarding animal cruelty start, in particular the ones about trip wires and horses?  Having asked that I know most of them are trained to fall as most horses fall to the left.
Sometimes though the question is when is an animal not regarded as an animal; should we really shoot/kill snakes or rabbits just for the sake of a film?
Which actors really care for animals and which see them as a prop?

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« #1 : May 24, 2006, 05:54:12 AM »

Which actors really care for animals and which see them as a prop?
I read a Clint Eastwood biography and he's meant to love animals so much that if he witnesses even the slightest cruelty such as a spider getting squashed by one of his employees,he'll fire them.
The often quoted story of Clint having punched and knocked out a horse is thankfully a fabrication!

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« #2 : May 29, 2006, 04:41:31 AM »

I read a Clint Eastwood biography and he's meant to love animals so much that if he witnesses even the slightest cruelty such as a spider getting squashed by one of his employees,he'll fire them.
The often quoted story of Clint having punched and knocked out a horse is thankfully a fabrication!

It's really good to know that some people do care - especially the ones with influence.  It's also good to hear that he takes this as far as spiders, which lots of people totally disregard.  I realise spiders was just an example but...  Are there any others out there or is Clint Eastwood unique?
It's obvious from the horse / rider interactions and from the horses facial expressions that some actors are more animal friendly / sensitive than others but then some may have just learned to ride for the part and have no intention of doing so again (though I find it hard to imagine not wanting to ride again!).  there's an ending to one sw where a ride is totally flapping and booting his poor old neddie into a gallop (I assume at the directors orders and I can see why those orders would have been given) surely the actor, who is usually on of the better ones with animals, should just turned round and said no ( I'm sure they wouldn't have give the part to another).  I know that some horses can be more than a bit of a handful, some riders have electric bums and you can squeeze some horses until your legs meet in the middle and I'm sure in some cases this is the case but in others it's often painfully obvious that it isn't.  Today tricks, such as falling onto the near fore etc are taught kindly to horses that are receptive to it but I'm well aware that this wasn't always the case.
So what do people think about the way animals are used in films, there must be some people with views out there after all horses, at least, are fundamental to sw's They add such a lot to films shouldn't we should treat them with the kindness and consideration they deserve?

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« #3 : June 01, 2006, 04:57:01 AM »


So what do people think about the way animals are used in films, there must be some people with views out there after all horses, at least, are fundamental to sw's They add such a lot to films shouldn't we should treat them with the kindness and consideration they deserve?
I do hate it in the older films when directors seemingly delighted in showing some really shocking horse falls(i'm glad they banned trip wires at some point because this is very cruel) and i'd be surprised if the animals came away uninjured in every instance.It didn't bother me in the slightest that the BBC censors removed a couple of seconds of bad horse falls from the DYS dvd because this had no bearing whatsoever on the storyline.
I'm not very happy seeing rabbits,birds,snakes etc being gunned down for our "entertainment" in films but one big redeeming factor in CGI effects which i usually abhor is that filmakers can completely remove the need for any animals to suffer. :D

« : June 01, 2006, 09:26:23 AM banjo »
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« #4 : June 01, 2006, 08:49:25 AM »

i don't like to see animals being mistreated, but I also can't support any sensorship, important to the storyline or not... I can understand stopping it from happening more, but there is nothing we can do about the films that were made in the past... I'm a huge fan of great stuntmen, and i despise cgi, so my hope would be that they are training some pretty amazing animal stunt performers and not just deciding to cut out a whole section of realism from films... unfortunately(and i don't mean any of you guys), a lot of people and organizations fight against even having animals kept in possession and trained for anything on a movie set, so even that is a tough thing to do.


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« #5 : June 02, 2006, 05:17:22 AM »

I'm glad that you don't like cruelty to animals and sure there's nothing we can do about past films but , although I don't always agree with censorship, I'd rather not see an animal in obvious distress; I can't see how it aids the film.  cgi would have it's place say if you were having to shoot say a snake or rabbit as killing any animal, however it's regarded, for entertainment is definitely not on.  If we wouldn't do it ourselves or do it to ourselves we have no right to ask an animal to do it.  Having said that I'm not a fan of cgi either but it does have it's place if well done and not overused.
Some animals enjoy learning tricks, some don't, those that don't should not be forced to do so.  If it is forced to do something against its will then that is cruel - if it's taught gently to do something and it's happy to do so then that's ok. 
As for animals being kept for movies I don't see the problem with this as long as they're kept in natural/normal conditions, do not want for basic needs and get the love and attention they require and deserve.  Some animal rights people do go over the top but if you could see some of the things we do to animals it's easy to see where they're coming from even if you don't agree with the way they go about doing things.  They don't regard dressage as cruel and that after all could be considered a series of tricks, but what they say about racing issues is all too true.

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« #6 : June 02, 2006, 11:05:10 AM »

Charlton Heston writes of his love of horses quite frequently in his autobiography (though he doesn't really like camels, it would seem).  And I've also read somewhere that Robert Ryan was also an equinophile (is that a word?).

I don't really have a problem with certain animals getting killed onscreen, for instance a snake or something of that nature, though I certainly don't enjoy seeing it, but I definitely don't like to see horses, dogs, cats, or like others mistreated.  I've read somewhere (don't remember which film) that there was a movie which featured a scene showing a real cat getting eaten alive by a swarm of rats.  And I'm glad I haven't seen that movie, because I honestly don't think I could take it.



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« #7 : June 02, 2006, 12:18:58 PM »

Has anyone seen what happens to the chickens in the start of Pat Garett & Billy The Kid  ;)


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« #8 : June 02, 2006, 02:50:33 PM »

I'm glad that you don't like cruelty to animals and sure there's nothing we can do about past films but , although I don't always agree with censorship, I'd rather not see an animal in obvious distress; I can't see how it aids the film. 

I agree, most of the time it's got nothing to do with the plot or the film at all, and nobody really likes to see it, I know I'd rather not, but i'm sure you see where i'm coming from that it doesn't really matter as far as cencorship goes. Idealy cencorship wouldn't happen, especially to older movies that are already made(there is no punishment for disregard of the rules going on), and for it not to happen it has to be across the board, if we pulled out something of an old movie that you'd rather not see, we'd have to pull out swears old christian women would rather not hear, and so on and so on... so i'm with you on stopping it, but leave the older movies alone.

as far as the chickens in pg+btk, it's not an ideal situation, but i don't see a problem with putting on film something equal to or better than what would be happening off film... I mean the chickens heads were coming off, probably in a more gruesome way. That and it is important.


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« #9 : June 02, 2006, 03:46:35 PM »

How about the cock fight? (Don't worry I don't have a problem with the chicken scenes in this film, the BBFC do though).


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« #10 : June 03, 2006, 09:53:11 AM »

Has anyone seen what happens to the chickens in the start of Pat Garett & Billy The Kid  ;)
Apart from Ride The High Country i don't have a high opinion of any of Peckinpahs other westerns(extremely dull,overlong and tedious) and from what i've read or heard about him,ignoring the fact he was an alcoholic and a drug addict he was it seemed quite a nasty piece of work-Susan George in an interview about Straw Dogs had very little nice things to say about him.The shooting chickens heads off scene was not only sickening(Clint Eastwood who in my books has not only made several westerns infinately superior on all levels to Peckinpah  would also never had resorted to such blatant and moronic animal cruelty)but totally unnecessary :( . Why not do something like Parolini did in Adios Sabata and have Patt Garrett shooting a weather cock instead? :-\

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« #11 : June 03, 2006, 09:59:09 AM »

I'm a big fan of Peckinpah so I can't/don't agree with you about his films but yes later on in his life he seemed to be one of the biggest a**holes in the film industry. I recomend, if you haven't already, to check out Sam's Ballard Of Cable Hogue. It's like Leone making his serious westerns then going on to produce Nobody. Sam made the Wild Bunch and went on to make the light hearted (and quite emotional) Hogue with an excellent performance by Robards as the title character. The Wild Bunch for me is his best film and I can watch that many times.


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« #12 : June 03, 2006, 10:11:25 AM »

I'm a big fan of Peckinpah so I can't/don't agree with you about his films but yes later on in his life he seemed to be one of the biggest a**holes in the film industry. I recomend, if you haven't already, to check out Sam's Ballard Of Cable Hogue. It's like Leone making his serious westerns then going on to produce Nobody. Sam made the Wild Bunch and went on to make the light hearted (and quite emotional) Hogue with an excellent performance by Robards as the title character. The Wild Bunch for me is his best film and I can watch that many times.
I always look out for Peckinpahs films because of his reputation and unfortunately Ballad Of Cable Hogue has never been on tv in recent years.
I really don't see whats so great about the Wild Bunch and unlike Leone characters i have a total inability to warm to any of the characters in Wild Bunch.The flashbacks are a damp squib compared to the spaghetti variety-with which he was obviously influenced by judging by the amount of violence(without the Italian subtlety) he injected in his later westerns.Apparently the amount of ammunition used in the finale was some sort of record-BIG DEAL-give me a more imaginative ending anyday! :)

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« #13 : June 03, 2006, 10:16:44 AM »

I can see your point but for my viewing experience, you start to sympathise with this band of killers. The ending for me is one of the best in cinema, 'Let's Go' sends chills down my spine. Goldsmith's score is excellent and Ryan's portrayal as the haunted Thorton is just brilliant. Holden's Pike has often been identified by Peckinpah friends and relatives to be a reflection of the director. I can't imagine any one else in the role except Holden.


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« #14 : June 05, 2006, 09:31:38 AM »

How about the cock fight? (Don't worry I don't have a problem with the chicken scenes in this film, the BBFC do though).

So why is this cruel scene vital to the film?

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