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| | |-+  Do Historical Innacuracies Keep You From Enjoying Some Movies
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: Do Historical Innacuracies Keep You From Enjoying Some Movies  ( 25463 )
dave jenkins
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« #45 : August 11, 2006, 08:25:44 AM »

The title implies no such thing.  It's a direct reference to a series of propaganda films produced during the war that more often than not portrayed the Axis (not entirely inaccurately) as a collective of monsters.  Interestingly enough, the films were directed by Frank Capra, who at the time was a Major in the US Army Signal Corps.
The Why We Fight films were the model for Starship Troopers, which, you may know, is an ironic send-up of war propaganda films.



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« #46 : August 11, 2006, 08:54:21 AM »

Although the burden of the fighting in Europe fell to the Soviets, they did almost nothing against the Japanese. The U.S. won the Pacific War.
Well what did we do there?  We committed some of the worst war crimes the World has ever known by dropping atomic weapons on dense civilian populations.

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« #47 : August 11, 2006, 09:14:59 AM »

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes? Excuse me? Because there were civilians in those cities? There were civilians in every city bombed in Europe and Asia in WWII. On your view, everything done in that war was a crime. Well, make up your own rules if you want, the rest of the world doesn't see it that way.

And there was much more to the Pacific War than bombing the Japanese homeland. Ever heard of the island-hopping campaign? Ever heard of the battle of Okinawa? Americans in great number died there so that idiots like you could post on boards like this one! I'll have to break off now, before I become uncivil.....



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« #48 : August 11, 2006, 11:02:24 AM »

The Why We Fight films were the model for Starship Troopers, which, you may know, is an ironic send-up of war propaganda films.

yes a clever send up of how Nazi Germany saw us Americans...as monsters.

or it could be how the Japs were potrayed as "disgusting yellow monsters that would rape your woman and eat children" (or something to that effect.

clever film, good action. my kind of movie.




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« #49 : August 11, 2006, 11:12:13 AM »

The U.S. won the Pacific War.
Another US revision of recent history, and one I'm sure any Chinese readers would disagree with (if they can get access to the board at all...). China was fighting the Japanese single handed some five years before America declared war against Japan. British, Australian, New Zealand and Indian troops fought the longest continous campaign of WWII in Burma against Japan, in which Japanese generals threw away almost 200,000 men.

China held down vast armies of Japanese troops, preventing them from taking part in the defence of the Islands. The US victory in the Pacific was an allied one, a joint effort. Yet again though we are hearing this simplistic "America won the war" assertion.

Yes, war crimes were comitted, but all by Japan, who treated their prisoners savagely, both military and civillian. The rape of Nanking, and the chemical and biological weapons research Unit 731 were just two of their atrocities. As Churchill said, they sowed the wind, and they reaped the whirlwind.

Where we in the west endlessly wring our hands over using the atomic bombs, what has the Japanese response been to their disgusting wartime behaviour?

Nothing.

Silence.

Denial. It was only six years ago that the Japanese govenment began to admit some of these excesses, some 50 years after the event. Just a couple of years ago there were riots in China over a new book being taught in Japanese schools about WWII, in which none of its atrocities were addressed. Such are the scars in China and Russia caused by the war that it'll be decades yet for them to heal. As witnessed by some of the passion of this debate so far, it was such an enormous event that we're still feeling the shockwaves from it today.

I guess it's "misrepresentation" rather than "innacuracy" that I don't like in films.


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« #50 : August 11, 2006, 12:41:37 PM »

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes? Excuse me? Because there were civilians in those cities? There were civilians in every city bombed in Europe and Asia in WWII. On your view, everything done in that war was a crime. Well, make up your own rules if you want, the rest of the world doesn't see it that way.

Thank you for saying so, as now I don't have to.  And given that it has been said, I can stop following this thread.  Bogus revisionism is something I can do without.


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« #51 : August 11, 2006, 12:45:09 PM »

if you want, the rest of the world doesn't see it that way.

And there was much more to the Pacific War than bombing the Japanese homeland. Ever heard of the island-hopping campaign? Ever heard of the battle of Okinawa? Americans in great number died there so that idiots like you could post on boards like this one! I'll have to break off now, before I become uncivil.....

good points and I agree but I think you could have done without calling him an idiot. there is no need for such things here...




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« #52 : August 11, 2006, 02:02:26 PM »

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes? Excuse me? Because there were civilians in those cities? There were civilians in every city bombed in Europe and Asia in WWII. On your view, everything done in that war was a crime. Well, make up your own rules if you want, the rest of the world doesn't see it that way.

And there was much more to the Pacific War than bombing the Japanese homeland. Ever heard of the island-hopping campaign? Ever heard of the battle of Okinawa? Americans in great number died there so that idiots like you could post on boards like this one! I'll have to break off now, before I become uncivil.....
Well call me an idiot if you like, but I think you have a rather sanitized account of history.  It's written by the victors after all.

If you were to do all it over again, you'd conduct the bombings of Dresden, of Tokyo, of Nagasaki, of Hiroshima, etc. all over again, just the same?

Dr. Gregory H. Stanton, president of Genocide Watch, wrote: "The Nazi Holocaust was among the most evil genocides in history. But the Allies' firebombing of Dresden and nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also war crimes — and as Leo Kuper and Eric Markusen have argued, also acts of genocide"[

« : August 11, 2006, 02:08:30 PM Jon0 »
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« #53 : August 11, 2006, 03:45:28 PM »

Quote
Another US revision of recent history, and one I'm sure any Chinese readers would disagree with (if they can get access to the board at all...). China was fighting the Japanese single handed some five years before America declared war against Japan. British, Australian, New Zealand and Indian troops fought the longest continous campaign of WWII in Burma against Japan, in which Japanese generals threw away almost 200,000 men.

True, but China was getting their asses kicked for the most part until we stepped in.  And Britain got overrun in Malaya, Singapore, Burma, and Hong Kong as well.

But I don't want to get into an argument Juan.  I don't depreciate Britain or Russia's contributions to the war.  Truth is, we were getting our butts kicked at the beginning of the Pacific War too.  And as a big fan of Britain I certainly don't want to attack you guys.  ;)

And I agree with you, what the Japanese did in WWII to the civilians of their conquered nations and Allied POWs, while not killing quite as many people, made the Holocaust look like kid stuff.  But you make a very good point:

- Americans feel mixed as the morality of the A-Bomb droppings and courtmartialed officers who deliberately massacred enemy POWs
- Germany apologized for the Holocaust repeatedly and has paid reparations to Israel and the survivors of Holocaust victims
- Japan and the Japanese, by and large, are unrepentant about their actions in WWII, which included chemical warfare, illegal medical experiments that would've made Joseph Mengele throw up, cannibalism, and releasing the plague into Manchuria which continued to kill people for decades after the war's end.

Quote
If you were to do all it over again, you'd conduct the bombings of Dresden, of Tokyo, of Nagasaki, of Hiroshima, etc. all over again, just the same?

Yes.  If that makes me barbaric and evil, so be it.  Those tactics were accepted as kosher at the time, it wasn't until decades later that anyone even cared.  People die in war, including civilians.  It's unfortunate, but it's almost impossible to prevent.  Hell, when people are accidentally killed in relatively precise and controlled airstrikes in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Kosovo, you scream bloody murder!  There's no way to win with you people, no way to fight a just war, even when we're the ones who were attacked!

To quote "Bridge on the River Kwai" again: "This is WAR!  It is not a game of cricket!"  And this moral equivalence BS is rather tiresome.

« : August 11, 2006, 03:48:03 PM Groggy »


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« #54 : August 11, 2006, 03:56:07 PM »

If you were to do all it over again, you'd conduct the bombings of Dresden, of Tokyo, of Nagasaki, of Hiroshima, etc. all over again, just the same?[

You can not cherry pick these events out of the context in which they happend and put them in the morality of the present. WWII was started in Europe by Nazi Germany and in the Pacific by a fascistic Imperial Japan.

In prosecuting their wars they won breathtaking early victories, and involved mass bombing and murder of civilian populations. Both my own parents narrowly survived the bombing of my home town Clydebank on the night of March 13th 1941. In terms of the population of civilian death compared to the % of the towns population, it was one of the wost bombing attacks in Europe in WWII.

Unlike WWI, nobody was looking for this conflict, they started it and kept it going beyond all reason. Their madness dragged US officialy stated policy away from never fighting a war of attrition, with an airforce totally lacking in bombers, to total war and the world's most powerful military machine. In the early years of the war when Britain stood alone and isolated (hence actually winning the war in Europe ;)) the only way we could take the war to the Nazis and hit back at the bastards was through strategic bombing. Yes Dresden and Hamburg were terrible, but they were all part of the same response to the Total War waged by the Axis.

True that the victors write the history, but would you rather we had lost and the globe plunged into Fascist and racist barbarism? It's a testemant in some ways to us the Victors that idiots can publish Holocaust denial garbage and the Japanese govenment still deny it ever did anything wrong.

Jings, I started something with that comment about BAND OF BROTHERS, huh?

« : August 11, 2006, 04:11:34 PM Juan Miranda »

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« #55 : August 11, 2006, 04:00:55 PM »

Good points, Juan.  Reminds of an essay that I read awhile ago: The Allies committed acts that were arguably atrocities (like mass bombings of civilian populations) on a regular basis - and we were the good guys!  Whatever bad the US, Britain and the other Allies may have done, it is laughable (if not outright appalling) to compare it to the Holocaust, Unit 731, Rape of Nanking, and the never-ceasing Nazi atrocities in Poland (which went far beyond the country's Jewry).



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« #56 : August 11, 2006, 04:34:12 PM »

True that the victors write the history, but would you rather we had lost and the globe plunged into Fascist and racist barbarism?
Of course not.  I just see some of those atrocities--such as Hiroshima--as completely unneccesary.  If our intention was solely to demonstrate the power of the atomic bomb, why not demonstrate it on an unpopulated but visible area?

I can already see the response coming....blah blah wouldn't have had the necessary effect blah blah.  I'll pre-empt that and just point out that it's easy for you arm chair generals to be so casual about these consequences.  Easy for you to say.  Maybe we should ask a Japanese child who saw his mother vaporize in front of his eyes what he thinks.  Whose children will grow up to get cancer from the radiation.  Tell him you guess you just need to break a few eggs to get an ommelete.

« : August 11, 2006, 04:55:40 PM Jon0 »
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« #57 : August 11, 2006, 05:11:38 PM »

I think the invetion and usage of atomic bombs is one of the dumbest things ever, but weren't the japanese warned well ahead of time? I think roosevelt sent out a warning about what was coming, but the japs either didnt respond or said bring it on. I think I saw this on tv.

I'm not too good on history, all I know is that we never seem to learn from it.


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« #58 : August 11, 2006, 05:17:45 PM »

I think the invetion and usage of atomic bombs is one of the dumbest things ever, but weren't the japanese warned well ahead of time? I think roosevelt sent out a warning about what was coming, but the japs either didnt respond or said bring it on. I think I saw this on tv.

I'm not too good on history, all I know is that we never seem to learn from it.
Well it would have been Truman who sent out a warning and I think it was very vague.  Either way, the Japanese imperial rulers are not the Japanese people.

I agree with you;re appraisal of history though ;D

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« #59 : August 11, 2006, 07:07:59 PM »

Well it would have been Truman who sent out a warning and I think it was very vague.  Either way, the Japanese imperial rulers are not the Japanese people.

I agree with you;re appraisal of history though ;D

The problem I have with it is that, as the US military found, hundreds of thousands of Americans and Allies - as well as millions of Japanese in all likelihood - would've been lost in an invasion of the home islands, which was the only real alternative.  Nasty as the A-Bomb was, it was the lesser of two evils.  (There were of course political reasons for it too, to demonstrate to the Soviets what we had and to prevent them from developing a sphere of influence in Japan like they had in Germany.)  I agree though, the creation of nuclear weapons was a rather stupid idea, thank God they were only used twice. . .



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