"Something to do with death"

[cigar joe]

I forget at exactly which point,but Frank tells Harmonica "Morton once told me I could never be like him. Now I know why,I just couldn't rest knowing you were out there alive." I'm fuzzy on the chronology,but I believe it happens before Harmonica's comment.

yea possible, but to use the actual words "business man" is more specific .... most folks back then would call Morton,  the popular vernacular of the times sobriquet of,  "Railroad Baron".

The other factor that also supports the he has "Something to do with Death" alternative is that in "Fistful of Dollars" dollars Leone specifically shows Eastwood wounded and recovering over a period of time after his brutal beating by the Rojo's, so its not as if Leone makes a practice of showing instant healing after serious gunshot wounds. That combined with his ethereal entrances marks him as different.

[The Peacemaker]

yea possible, but to use the actual words "business man" is more specific .... most folks back then would call Morton,  the popular vernacular of the times sobriquet of,  "Railroad Baron".

Actually, they people would probably call him " Robber Baron. "

Remember, back then the capitalists like Morton were some of the most despised men in America...and most of the time for a good reason.

[cigar joe]

Actually, they people would probably call him " Robber Baron. "

Yea thats true.

Another would be just plain, he's a "Railroader".

[Noodles_SlowStir]

I've been reading a couple of books and Boorman's Point Blank keeps coming up.  I noticed somewhere on the Duck, You Sucker dvd, Boorman helped Leone with the locations in Ireland.  There's a Boorman Leone connection.  Could it be possible that Leone was influenced by Boorman in his treatment of the Harmonica character?  I've been reading treatments of Point Blank in which Walker (Lee Marvin), is kind of the walking dead.  I haven't seen the film in sometime.  Apparently the viewer never sees Walker in the process of going anywhere.  He just suddenly appears.  It brought to my mind the Harmonica character.  Point Blank came out in 1967, the year before OUATITW was released in Italy.   Both films have Keenan Wynn in common as well.  I still haven't read Something To Do With Death.  I've seen where Boorman has been pointed out as a director Leone liked somewhere on another thread.    

[cigar joe]

Well I saw this film yesterday for the first time on the big screen in a posh theater at Moma in New York City, naturally I was swept away by the experience, I just basked in the visions & sounds the audience reactions, in a nutshell beautiful.

I actually started paying attention to the topic of this thread way too late than I should have but I think I did make a new discovery that I know I'll have to pop in the DVD to confirm. Harmonica at the final shootout with Frank has no bullet hole in his coat!. At least by the time I was looking I didn't see it or it didn't show (wether there was a shadow or or a fold masking it I don't know) but I didn't see it.

The last clear shot of it I remember is when Cheyenne looks at it in Standers Saloon. So we have something new to check and discuss.

[The Peacemaker]

That's funny, I just got back from seeing it at MoMA. I went with two of my friends, one loved it the other said it was okay.

Anyway, it was funny because I got really excited at first because I saw two of the extended shots from the opening scene that were in the Italian DVD. I thought they were going to show the other deleted material but the only material were those two second shots.


This is my second time seeing this on the big screen and can easily say that it won't be the last. I loved the experience so much, it went by too damn fast.

[moviesceleton]

Well I saw this film yesterday for the first time on the big screen in a posh theater at Moma in New York City, naturally I was swept away by the experience, I just basked in the visions & sounds the audience reactions, in a nutshell beautiful.

I actually started paying attention to the topic of this thread way too late than I should have but I think I did make a new discovery that I know I'll have to pop in the DVD to confirm. Harmonica at the final shootout with Frank has no bullet hole in his coat!. At least by the time I was looking I didn't see it or it didn't show (wether there was a shadow or or a fold masking it I don't know) but I didn't see it.

The last clear shot of it I remember is when Cheyenne looks at it in Standers Saloon. So we have something new to check and discuss.

Wasn't it mentioned on the extras that it was a error made by the crew (I could be wrong)?  I think the Saloon scene was one of the last scenes shot.

[cigar joe]

Wasn't it mentioned on the extras that it was a error made by the crew (I could be wrong)?  I think the Saloon scene was one of the last scenes shot.

Not if he "had something to do with Death" in a supernatural way, if it simply disappeared or healed slowly throughout the film, which I'd have to check, then it would strenghten the "Avenging Spirit" theory.

I'll get back to you on it.

[marmota-b]

Apparently the viewer never sees Walker in the process of going anywhere.  He just suddenly appears.  It brought to my mind the Harmonica character.

However, we do see Harmonica going to the railway station, when he follows Wobbles... don't we?

[Jordan Krug]

I've been reading a couple of books and Boorman's Point Blank keeps coming up.  I noticed somewhere on the Duck, You Sucker dvd, Boorman helped Leone with the locations in Ireland.  There's a Boorman Leone connection.  Could it be possible that Leone was influenced by Boorman in his treatment of the Harmonica character?  I've been reading treatments of Point Blank in which Walker (Lee Marvin), is kind of the walking dead.  I haven't seen the film in sometime.  Apparently the viewer never sees Walker in the process of going anywhere.  He just suddenly appears.  It brought to my mind the Harmonica character.  Point Blank came out in 1967, the year before OUATITW was released in Italy.   Both films have Keenan Wynn in common as well.  I still haven't read Something To Do With Death.  I've seen where Boorman has been pointed out as a director Leone liked somewhere on another thread.    

very interesting connection there, I'm a big big fan of point blank, and you're right, the kind of hints or clues left in both films are similar (although I think you can find a little more evidence in Point Blank, plus the way the whole film is edited/constructed adds to the ghostly feeling)...but I'm very intrigued by this possiblility. Would be great to have evidence that Leone liked/mentioned Boorman, especially since Point Blank was Boorman's first film (so if this comment by Leone was made in the sixties, then we'd know he was probably talking about point blank (or Hell in the Pacific - which is another great boorman film)...

[cigar joe]

Ok did a quick run through myself today

Bullet hole upper left chest area at Cattle Corner Station Shootout, He puts his left arm in coat button sling.
Bullet hole at Lionel Stander' Desert Oasis Cheyenne examines it.
At Wobbles beating no bullet hole & full use of his left arm.
At McBains Ranch no bullet hole, and when he roughly manhandels Jill again full use of his left side.
And at well confrontation he removes his coat and we see a hole in his red shirt but it is a clean hole, no encrusted blood.
At the station and in every scene thereafter no bullet hole.

Ergo are we to believe that Carlo Simi, Leone, and Crew completely blew it or are we to conclude that Harmonica really has "something to do with DEATH"?

[Noodles_SlowStir]

However, we do see Harmonica going to the railway station, when he follows Wobbles... don't we?

Yes.  He does follow Wobbles.  But the way it's shot, for me, I think it's like a lot of his other appearances throughout the film.  Quite mysterious.  Jill goes to speak to Wobbles and verbally baits him so he'll seek out Frank so Harmonica can follow.  When she walks out of Wobbles' business, there he is leaning behind the post.  Afterward, the viewer sees Wobbles as he walks toward the tracks and Morton's train.  We never see Harmonica walking behind him.  Wobbles reaches the train.  Another oncoming train comes along, after it passes, like a curtain, there's Harmonica standing in the far left corner of the screen.  Basically recalling his first arrival at Cattle Corner. We do see him take a few steps toward the train, but the way it's filmed, it's like he appears out of nowhere on the spot.  In Point Blank, Walker enters scenes in a similar way.  Sometimes he's in transit within the location he suddenly appears.  I'm thinking about the scene in the high rise when he clomps down the corridor loudly.  With Harmonica, he's basically on the spot and walking towards the train.  I think the only scene for Harmonica that's different is the conclusion.  We actually see him on a horse riding away from Sweetwater.  His travel comes to an abrupt end with the Cheyenne situation.  Afterward, when he resumes his riding, there he is again heading quickly toward the far left edge of the screen.

The treatment of the characters seems similar.  I think there is a difference in how they're represented.  I think there are different degrees of ambiguity about both characters.  I think that Harmonica is more undefined and can be open to a greater amount of interpretation.  He can represent more than one thing.  I wasn't trying to suggest that his scene appearances are sudden appearances by an apparition.   I'll have to watch OUATITW again for the coat. Walker on the other hand, I think the director's intention is more defined.  Although I suppose to a degree, he can be open to some interpretation by certain viewers.

very interesting connection there, I'm a big big fan of point blank, and you're right, the kind of hints or clues left in both films are similar (although I think you can find a little more evidence in Point Blank, plus the way the whole film is edited/constructed adds to the ghostly feeling)...but I'm very intrigued by this possibility. Would be great to have evidence that Leone liked/mentioned Boorman, especially since Point Blank was Boorman's first film (so if this comment by Leone was made in the sixties, then we'd know he was probably talking about point blank (or Hell in the Pacific - which is another great boorman film)... 

 

I've had an opportunity to catch Point Blank a couple of times since that post.  I agree that there's more evidence and clues by Boorman to think of Walker in a particular way.  Having seen it a couple times again, I would say that "walking dead" was inaccurate.  You're right the film is quite oneiric in the way it's filmed.  It would seem to have some similarities to Duck, You Sucker (Sean's flashback, state of consciousness before his death) and if one believes in the dream theory (which I don't), I suppose OUATIA as well.  I don't know of any quotes from Sergio in the sixties referencing Boorman, or by anyone that contributed to the OUATITW screenplay.  It would be interesting.  The connection was made by what I had read describing the Walker character and having recently viewed Duck, You Sucker and its featurettes.
 

           

[marmota-b]

However, we do see Harmonica going to the railway station, when he follows Wobbles... don't we?

We never see Harmonica walking behind him.

That's what I wasn't sure about. So we don't.

[JFM]

another discovery that we made not long ago was the fact that Harmonica asks Frank something like "so you found out that you are not a business man after all" refering to Frank's conversation with Morton, when he was never present for that conversation,  I believe it happens before Harmonica was on top of the private train car.

The fact that Frank shows up for the duel is evidence enough for Harmonica to draw the conclusion that there's enough gunman/killer in Frank for him to want to risk (or dump) his business dreams for a duel.

[JFM]

Ok did a quick run through myself today

Bullet hole upper left chest area at Cattle Corner Station Shootout, He puts his left arm in coat button sling.
Bullet hole at Lionel Stander' Desert Oasis Cheyenne examines it.
At Wobbles beating no bullet hole & full use of his left arm.
At McBains Ranch no bullet hole, and when he roughly manhandels Jill again full use of his left side.
And at well confrontation he removes his coat and we see a hole in his red shirt but it is a clean hole, no encrusted blood.
At the station and in every scene thereafter no bullet hole.

Ergo are we to believe that Carlo Simi, Leone, and Crew completely blew it or are we to conclude that Harmonica really has "something to do with DEATH"?

From your list, it looks like it is Harmonica's clothes that have "something to do with death", not Harmonica himself  ;-)