Red River (1948)

[dave jenkins]

If you don't see him dead he obviously lives. I think there's no doubt about that the way it was filmed and edited.

Preview cut or theatrical?

[drinkanddestroy]

Preview cut or theatrical?

I believe that the (brief) showdown between Tom and Cherry is the same in both versions

[drinkanddestroy]

The ultra-conventional ending by Chase would have been very sentimental and pretty painful to watch. I like Hawks nonchalant attitude which made follow his feelings.

are you KIDDING??? I mean, April Fools Day was more than two months ago.

Dunson dying would be "conventional"? I call the "happily ever after" ending conventional, with everything ending up all sweet and beautiful. Dunson dying (not to mention taking Cherry with him) would definitely put a sad tinge on things for the audience, who – crazy as he become – sympathizes with Dunson. (Even if John Wayne wasn't "John Wayne" at his point, the audience still does not want Dunson to die; the typical audience that wants a feel-good ending definitely wants Tom and Matt to kiss and make up, which is exactly what happens.) And, as Chase said to Hawks, even if Dunson does live at the end, the fact that it's the girl that gets in there and gives this little speech, that really kills it. A man like Tom Dunson, who built an empire of 10,000 head of cattle from one bull and one cow, who slaved at it for nearly 15 years, a tough man who killed anyone who threatened to take his dream from him, as tough a man as you could get, who went and got men and followed the herd for the express purpose of killing Matt, he suddenly melts with a few words from a babe? I don't wanna hear about how a woman can have a strange effect on a man and blah blah blah. That ending is an insult to any viewer for who isn't the type that always looks for a "happily ever after" ending.

[drinkanddestroy]

btw, I mentioned previously that I also got the old MGM dvd of Red River cuz on Beeaver's screencaps, that one looked darker and I wasn't so sure that Criterion's brightening was an improvement. Anyway, after watching the Criterion BRD, I slipped the old disc into my player, and that one is full of damage marks, speckles, etc. So, I don't know or care whether the darker or lighter color is better; considering that the Criterion version looks great with hardly any damage marls I can remember, no way am I ever gonna watch that old DVD with the speckles ever again....

[stanton]

Preview cut or theatrical?

The version I always watched since the 70s. I lost track which version is which. But it must be the theatrical version.

Is there a difference about the cherry pie?

[stanton]

are you KIDDING??? I mean, April Fools Day was more than two months ago.

Dunson dying would be "conventional"? I call the "happily ever after" ending conventional, with everything ending up all sweet and beautiful. Dunson dying (not to mention taking Cherry with him) would definitely put a sad tinge on things for the audience, who – crazy as he become – sympathizes with Dunson. (Even if John Wayne wasn't "John Wayne" at his point, the audience still does not want Dunson to die; the typical audience that wants a feel-good ending definitely wants Tom and Matt to kiss and make up, which is exactly what happens.) And, as Chase said to Hawks, even if Dunson does live at the end, the fact that it's the girl that gets in there and gives this little speech, that really kills it. A man like Tom Dunson, who built an empire of 10,000 head of cattle from one bull and one cow, who slaved at it for nearly 15 years, a tough man who killed anyone who threatened to take his dream from him, as tough a man as you could get, who went and got men and followed the herd for the express purpose of killing Matt, he suddenly melts with a few words from a babe? I don't wanna hear about how a woman can have a strange effect on a man and blah blah blah. That ending is an insult to any viewer for who isn't the type that always looks for a "happily ever after" ending.

Cherry spares Matt the duel and then the dying Dunson finds peace with Mattie in a sobful end? This is not ultra conventional? This is exactly how a typical Hollywood film ends such a constellation. Only Mel Brooks could have directed this in a way that it not hurts the brain.

The Chase ending is a typical sentimental Hollywood ending, while the actual one in the film is a Hawks ending. The only good alternative to the Hawks ending would be of course that Clift kills Wayne (a 70s ending), but that would be asking a bit too much for a mainstream Hollywood film, which RR in the end is, despite also being a very personal film by Hawks.

That Dunson not dies is exactly what an typical audience does not expect. Drink, your reaction towards the ending fits the stereotyped expectations. I think it is even "realistic". As much as a Hawks film can be realistic.

I never had a problem with the ending, not as a child, not now. And I like Dru's role, a typical hawksian strong woman, too. If not Matt kills Dunson, the only other non-conventional option, nobody else should do it either.

[drinkanddestroy]

The version I always watched since the 70s. I lost track which version is which. But it must be the theatrical version.

Is there a difference about the cherry pie?

you mean the one with the "bridge" scenes written in a book? that is the pre-release version. My understanding is that the theatrical version – with Walter Brennan narrating the bridge scenes – hasn't been available until now. At least not in USA

[drinkanddestroy]

Cherry spares Matt the duel and then the dying Dunson finds peace with Mattie in a sobful end? This is not ultra conventional? This is exactly how a typical Hollywood film ends such a constellation. Only Mel Brooks could have directed this in a way that it not hurts the brain.
--
That Dunson not dies is exactly what an typical audience does not expect. Drink, your reaction towards the ending fits the stereotyped expectations. I think it is even "realistic". As much as a Hawks film can be realistic.

I never had a problem with the ending, not as a child, not now. And I like Dru's role, a typical hawksian strong woman, too. If not Matt kills Dunson, the only other non-conventional option, nobody else should do it either.

Matt is definitely not gonna die. There's no doubt about that. And he's not gonna fire on Dunson. But I don't think any audience member actually wants Dunson to die either, and I don't think any believes he will die. I absolutely never thought Dunson would die. This sort of ending where they kiss and make up is the exact ending I'd expect from a typical Hollywood movie. And I don't think Cherry doing it is a cop out; Cherry all along has been telling Matt he is soft; Cherry (at least in the book) has been a big, tough character; big enough to kill Dunson.

[stanton]

I don't think that any audience member wants Dunson to die (me not), I would even assume that the majority wants him to be alive, but I'm 100 % sure that everybody who knows a little bit about how popular books and films work expected him to die. Cause these type of good/bad guys always die. Wayne played this type otherwise probably only in Reap the Wild Wind. There he dies while sacrificing himself for the hero (who meanwhile also took his girl), saving his life, and therefore saving the film the happy end. This role type always dies shortly after they found back to the "good side".
And that not Matt has to kill him in the script is also 100 % typical. Other typical solutions for the good/bad guy's death are the forces of nature.

Red River is one of the few films who does not follow that convention.

[drinkanddestroy]

As they get to Abilene.... I'd like to digress and copy a paragraph from the book I really like:
And so a town was born. It wasn't planned. No dreamers in Congress sketched its streets. Men built it. Hard men. Americans! Built it with gall and guts and sweat. Built it for profit and built it for fun. It was good to build. Good to spread their country across a continent. They made mistakes. Hundreds of mistakes. Thousands of mistakes. But they'd set out to build a country, and they got the job done.

Funny – I didn't know this at the time I copied this paragraph  from the book, but – after reading Scot Eyman's bio of John Wayne, I now learned that Borden Chase was one of the staunch anti-Communists in Hollywood, a member of the Motion Picture Alliance, a big right-winger. The sentiment expressed in this paragraph – capitalism, prosperity comes through hard work and not government – fits perfectly 

[drinkanddestroy]

On the TV show Jeopardy! on Monday night:

The "Final Jeopardy" category was: "Movie Title References"

and this was the clue: "For this 1971 film, the reference is to the 1948 film Red River."



I couldn't think of the right answer. Nor could any of the three contestants.




The answer is .................


The Last Picture Show


I'm not certain that I agree that this is a fair question. Yes, in The Last Picture Show, the last movie playing at the theater was Red River, but can you say that the title of TLPS "refers" to RR? To me, the title of TLPS refers to the general idea of the last show playing at the theater; it refers to the theater closing, and the last time they showed a movie. I wouldn't say that the title of TLPS refers to RR.

I'm a huge fan of Jeopardy!, I watch the show very often, I love it, but I'm not so sure that this was a good clue.

[titoli]

Just saw it again after many decades. First time I saw it in mid-70's in a cinema.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmsatj_red-river_shortfilms

I agree with those here who can't stand the Dru character. It slows down the movie, which for the rest is excellent. And I don't think the finale is so bad: her scenes with Clift are much worse and dispensable plotwise. I don't think Wayne is as good here as in Searchers or Grit. Not by his fault, but those other characters are more interesting and ambiguous. So it's 8/10, for the story and the screenplay: Hawks direction doesn't impress me so much, maybe because of the b&w.

[cigar joe]

Just saw it again after many decades. First time I saw it in mid-70's in a cinema.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmsatj_red-river_shortfilms

I agree with those here who can't stand the Dru character. It slows down the movie, which for the rest is excellent. And I don't think the finale is so bad: her scenes with Clift are much worse and dispensable plotwise. I don't think Wayne is as good here as in Searchers or Grit. Not by his fault, but those other characters are more interesting and ambiguous. So it's 8/10, for the story and the screenplay: Hawks direction doesn't impress me so much, maybe because of the b&w.

The best part is the cattle drive sequences.

[Moorman]

I gotta see this movie. After reading some of the posts, i think i'm gonna like it...

[Moorman]

Ok.  Saw this movie. I was impressed.  Lets get into it:

1. Cinematography. I love black and white westerns.  The look and feel was on point.  The set pieces did what they had to do.

2. Characters.  Everybody was on point. I couldn't have asked for more. Brennan did a excellent job.

3. The script.  Loved it. I know. I know. That ending is controversial.  Personally, i think that when Dunson killed Cherry, THAT was the ending that people longed for.  Remember, it was Cherry that hyped Matthew up to take over the herd in the first place.  The female character and the love plot.  It wasn't too overboard, like My Darling Clementine, so it didn't take away from the movie for me.  The massive number of cattle on display was impressive.

4. Music Score.  Not bad, not anything that jumps out at you. Just OK...

I really liked this movie.  I rate it a 8/10...