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: Rate The Last Movie You Saw  ( 4341050 )
noodles_leone
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« #19740 : May 26, 2021, 01:27:09 AM »

I was never a huge fan of B&C but it also paved the way for a lot of the "realism" of the 70's (eventhough Arthur Penn kept it pretty sleak and "design" - not as much as The Graduate, but still).

Ok for Point Blank, I bought it. I'll have to find some time to watch it properly. The way it's edited prefigures a lot of  the cool innovations that came with Don't Look Now. Also, now I see way more clearly what Soderbergh was trying to emulate with his version of The Limey.


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« #19741 : May 26, 2021, 01:42:49 AM »

The Limey is definitely the child of Point Blank. I really admire The Limey and think highly of it, but I don't love it the way others do. But at worst, it's an impressively creative and interesting movie with some soul.



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« #19742 : May 26, 2021, 01:50:42 AM »


Fair, but to me, the shootout from The Wild Bunch eclipses the violence/editing/etc in Bonnie and Clyde in every way.

Ahh, no, both are excellent.

B&C is still a 10er for me, which Point Blank isn't, but it is a film I like very much, and is one of Boorman's best. I like both Penn and Boorman, they made some very good films, but also made some which should be better considering their director's abilities, and the potential of plot and cast. But both were very visual directors, way more interesting than say Lumet or Jewison or Schaffner.


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« #19743 : May 26, 2021, 07:02:42 AM »

Lumet is different: the fact that his direction isn't in your face doesn't mean it isn't highly visual and, more importantly, truly cinematic. But I do think he hasn't made the 10/10 films he should have, considering his abilities.


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« #19744 : May 26, 2021, 07:34:12 AM »

Lumet is good, but none of his films goes beyond 8/10. And he made some pretentious turkeys too. I don't care for his visuals. and he is very much a director for me who lives from the screenplays. The half forgotten Martin Ritt is similar case for me, but he could go sometimes beyond the limits of Lumet.

Penn could accomplish really incredible scenes (and films), using both the editing and camera-movements to create unusual stuff. And he also got terrific results from his actors, especially again from Gene Hackman.


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« #19745 : May 26, 2021, 09:35:17 AM »

Once again, I don't think you're right about Lumet's visuals. You've been tricked by his low key style. Before the Devil Knows you're dead is a masterclass in how to tell a story with visuals (apart from some weird and dated editing during the transitions. And of course the cinematography looks bad). Also Lumet got 2 of the 3 very best performances by Pacino (a truly overrated actor), an incredible Cazale one (but yeah, who didn't get that?), probably the 4th best performance by Philip Seymour Hoffman (after PDL, The Master and Synecdoche New York)... He almost always worked with great actors, but he really got the best out of them. As well as the very best from average actors.

It hurts me to say so but I'm with Drink on this one.

« : May 26, 2021, 09:40:33 AM noodles_leone »

dave jenkins
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« #19746 : May 26, 2021, 02:29:51 PM »

Once again, I don't think you're right about Lumet's visuals. You've been tricked by his low key style. Before the Devil Knows you're dead is a masterclass in how to tell a story with visuals (apart from some weird and dated editing during the transitions. And of course the cinematography looks bad). Also Lumet got 2 of the 3 very best performances by Pacino (a truly overrated actor), an incredible Cazale one (but yeah, who didn't get that?), probably the 4th best performance by Philip Seymour Hoffman (after PDL, The Master and Synecdoche New York)... He almost always worked with great actors, but he really got the best out of them. As well as the very best from average actors.

It hurts me to say so but I'm with Drink on this one.
Wow, Drink doesn't even speak and noodles falls right in line.



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« #19747 : May 26, 2021, 07:47:40 PM »


It hurts me to say so but I'm with Drink on this one.

With me on what??????

p.s. I love how it hurts you all every time you gotta say you agree with me on something >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

« : May 26, 2021, 09:20:11 PM drinkanddestroy »

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« #19748 : May 26, 2021, 08:05:51 PM »

It's hilarious that noodles goes out of his way to abase himself when in the present case he doesn't have to. Obviously, we're dealing with a hardcore masochist here.



"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
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« #19749 : May 26, 2021, 10:50:17 PM »

On Lumet! Drink hasn?t spoken about him yet but I know he likes him a lot and thinks the filmmaker?s low key style hurt his aura among filmgoers.

« : May 26, 2021, 10:51:19 PM noodles_leone »

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« #19750 : May 26, 2021, 11:44:40 PM »

On Lumet! Drink hasn?t spoken about him yet but I know he likes him a lot and thinks the filmmaker?s low key style hurt his aura among filmgoers.

Did I say I like him A LOT? I do not remember. Maybe.

I probably mentioned him in context of a larger conversation about how the filmmakers with low-key styles often do not get credit. Most notable are Billy Wilder. Also Michael Curtiz. Lumet made some really good movies (none that I would consider great), but also some shitty ones.

Dog Day Afternoon is really good. As is Running on Empty. Twelve Angry Men. I only saw Before the Devil Knows You?re Dead once, but I recall it?s good. I should see it again. The Verdict is good.

I think he screwed up Serpico and Prince of the City by deliberately casting all unknown actors (with the exception of Pacino). Besides Pacino as Serpico and Jerry Orbach in Prince of the City, the cast of those movies are shit. Murder on the Orient Express was a fun watch when I saw it years ago but I have no desire to see it again anytime soon. As is often the case with mysteries.

Network is decent but overrated IMO.

I recently saw a movie he made from 1965 called  The Hill - about a British POW camp during WWII - a prison for British soldiers who have been court martialed. Fairly decent movie. Filmed in Almeria, right during the time of the Dollars films.

Anyway, there may be nothing obviously inspiring about Lumet, but he made quite a few good movies.

But no, he is not near the top of my list of favorite directors. (Wilder is).

On another note, n_l bashing on Pacino as an actor? Come on. I know he has been virtually MIA for decades (and I did not love him in The Irishman [maybe I was distracted by his awful wig]) but that guy has delivered some incredible performances. Not only for Lumet. Yes, Dog Day Afternoon may be one of the great performances in the movies. Don?t forget GF, GF2, The Panic in Needle Park, Heat ... and he was not strictly a scenery-chewer either.


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« #19751 : May 27, 2021, 12:38:26 AM »

Pacino was a great actor for a short time in the 70s, but he began early to foster his quickly overdone mannerisms, and he did that already early in Bobby Deerfield and in And Justice for All, but since the 90s his performances are often really terrible, they hurt the films, and I say such a thing quite seldom about actors. De Niro has also lost all his incredible charisma since the mid-80s, but at least he is mostly not that bothersome.

But well, I'm just in the middle of The Irishman, and here it is the Bob who is really hard to watch, while the Al is at least tolerable.


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« #19752 : May 27, 2021, 12:53:15 AM »

And Lumet, just take his most famous film, which happens to be 12 Angry Men. Yes he does try to make the play more filmic, it looks better than your usual filmed play of the 50s, but still it fells more like theatre than like a genuine film. That's because of the acting and the development of the characters, which is not that convincing for me. It is one of those classics I don't care much for, it is a solid 7/10, but not more.

I have a Blu of Dog Day Afternoon, and I intend to watch that with my girl-friend soon, it will be the first time since an eternity. And Network is another one I would like to re-watch (but I don't have a copy).

Comparing him to Boorman and Penn, I bought several discs of both, not only their masterpieces, also some lesser films, because there is always something to discover, but I have zero interest in buying films from Lumet. But he's one of whom I have enough interest to re-watch his movies if they are on TV, but they don't impress me enough to make wish to have them on the shelf. From Penn and Boorman I have watched nearly every film, missing are only some of their later ones, later when both's career somehow slipped into obscurity, their later films were often not released theatrically in Germany, nore elsewhere. But I'm just buying from Boorman a rather unknown film called The Tiger's Tail from 2006.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tiger%27s_Tail

« : May 27, 2021, 01:32:14 AM stanton »

drinkanddestroy
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« #19753 : May 27, 2021, 01:06:10 AM »



I have a Blu of Dog Day Afternoon, and I intend to watch that with my girl-friend soon

Better idea is to watch that with your boyfriend


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« #19754 : May 27, 2021, 02:54:03 AM »

@Stanton:

I admit I haven't dug into the less famous films by both Lumet and Penn. But come on, 12 Angry Men is his first film, of course, just like CoR, it isn't as good as a masterpiece by Arthur Penn. The story is still told in a better way than what I remember from The Left Handed Gun (I haven't seen it in ages so I may be wrong).

Anyway, I'm not saying you shoud like Lumet more than Penn (I like Penn's best work way more than Lumet's ones), I'm saying that:
- you're underestimating him due to his low key style, which you do.
- he often chose topics that are more naturalistic in nature, which you can like or not but you cannot hold that against him
- his low key style is sometimes highly cinematic. Cool, sleak, designer-worthy camerawork isn't cinematic by definition either, sometimes it's just design and not cinema.

I hope you'll reevaluate your point of view of Lumet because that guy's work is often masterful (eventhough, I agree, he hasn't made a 10/10 despite his huge body of work) and you're just missing out on great cinema here.


@Drink:

I'm glad you and I disagree afterall  ;D
But no, it was a discussion you started with me, very much centered on Lumet, in the context of Lumet and only Lumet. I seem to remember you had just (re?)watched Running on Empty or read Lumet's Making Movies.

Talking about Running on empty: the following extended shot, in the context of the whole movie of course, is at last as truly, deeply cinematic and incredible as anything by Penn Mr Stanton can find:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Ztq4icMGU
(that shot is also much better than the whole movie itself)

« : May 27, 2021, 03:18:41 AM noodles_leone »

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