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: Rate The Last Movie You Saw  ( 4912650 )
moviesceleton
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The glance that makes holes in the silver screen


« #12240 : July 14, 2013, 02:38:41 AM »

It's definitely hard to watch an actor you know and love as a Nazi (like Orson Welles as The Stranger).
Now, this seems like a fun game. Do you like Leonardo DiCaprio? Was it hard for you to see him play a sadistic racist in Django Unchained?

Or how about Bruno Ganz as Hitler in Downfall? He's German so I guess you just hate him anyway, even in The American Friend or Wings of Desire.


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« #12241 : July 14, 2013, 03:47:12 AM »

I don't mean that I can't watch any actor I like play a detestable character. I mean, if that were the case, then I'd basically have to stop watching movies.

But there's something different about Nazis. The idea of Orson Welles as a Nazi just felt very weird. As detestable as Tom Powers or Cody Jarrett may be, I have no problem enjoying watching Cagney play them. (I have no use for Tarantino and didn't particularly enjoy Django Unchained anyway, but him playing that evil slaveowner is not what prevented me from enjoying the movie).
But there's something about a Nazi that transcends the general movie "suspension of disbelief" or whatever. I just couldn't reconcile Welles and a Nazi. I don't think it was a very good movie anyway, but either way, there's no way I could have actually been convinced of the evilness of the character, and no way that I could feel about that character the same way that I feel about other movie Nazis.

Just to be clear: No, I don't mean that every single German is a Nazi or that I hate every single German.
The issue is: when I am watching a movie, can I believe that Actor X is Character Y? Suppose Susan Sarandon would play Huck Finn: I wouldn't for a moment (even in a movie/suspension-of-disbelief sense) believe that the person I am watching is Huck Finn. So it would feel very weird.

So, in the case we are discussing: can I believe that this man I am watching onscreen is a Nazi? There's just no way I could feel the same way about him if he is played by Orson Welles, as when he is played by, for example, some German especially in the immediate postwar years, who perhaps was in the German army himself.

It's not just about whether or not the character is detestable; it's about believability: Tom Powers and Cody Jarrett are despicable, but you can still love watching them and believe, when watching Cagney, "That is Tom Powers!" or "That is Cody Jarrett.. You can get a kick out of seeing them do their thing, you can enjoy seeing Cagney play the character. But watching Welles, I just didn't feel, "That is a Nazi." Was that because Welles didn't do a good job as an actor, or is it just my emotions not allowing me to see past it? I don't know.

-- I've never heard of Bruno Ganz or any of those movies you mentioned.

« : July 14, 2013, 04:08:39 AM drinkanddestroy »

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« #12242 : July 14, 2013, 04:09:46 AM »

That's pretty weird.

Actors do act, and they must not be what they act. Every actor who looks halfway like a German can play a convincing Nazi. Only if you only can watch the usual cliche Nazi it could be a problem to have someone like Welles playing one. A Chinese would be problematic playing in a serious film Hitler, but many very different actors have managed to play a convincing film Hitler. Robert Carlyle and Anthony Hopkins amongst them.

One aspect of the Nazis was that most of them were basically just average people, even some of them who did some of those monstrous crimes. Nazis had a certain behaviour, but not a e certain look. And Robert Vaughn does a good job in playing one.


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« #12243 : July 14, 2013, 04:22:53 AM »

That's pretty weird.

Actors do act, and they must not be what they act. Every actor who looks halfway like a German can play a convincing Nazi. Only if you only can watch the usual cliche Nazi it could be a problem to have someone like Welles playing one. A Chinese would be problematic playing in a serious film Hitler, but many very different actors have managed to play a convincing film Hitler. Robert Carlyle and Anthony Hopkins amongst them.

One aspect of the Nazis was that most of them were basically just average people, even some of them who did some of those monstrous crimes. Nazis had a certain behaviour, but not a e certain look. And Robert Vaughn does a good job in playing one.

--I don't know exactly why it is that I had that reaction to Welles and The Stranger. Maybe it was some combination of the fact that the Nazis were the worst evil to walk this earth and Welles being such a major beloved star.But as soon as I saw him playing a Nazi I just couldn't take the movie seriously.

-- I don't know what you mean by "look." And I don't know what you mean by most Nazis "were basically just average people." What is an average person? Obviously, nobody is evil until they become evil. Everyone eats, sleeps, pisses, farts, just like everyone else, even if they become a sadistic mass murderer. (Those rumors that Hitler never took off his boots cuz he had the feet of a chicken notwithstanding). Yeah, if you saw a Nazi walking down the street, you probably couldn't tell who he was just by looking at him. (And if another Hitler God-forbid came along and riled up the people and awoke the evil within them, yeah, a lot of what we consider to be "normal" people, your friends and neighbors, may start killing and torturing on a mass scale.

-- btw, this discussion came up briefly a little while ago
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10905.msg159334#msg159334

« : July 14, 2013, 04:26:17 AM drinkanddestroy »

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« #12244 : July 14, 2013, 06:08:35 AM »

Welles being such a major beloved star.
For me, he has always been a bad guy expert. Or at least expert in playing morally ambivalent characters.


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« #12245 : July 14, 2013, 07:12:57 AM »

Spring Breakers (2013) 8/10. Four bimbos head to St. Pete's for spring break, decide they don't want to leave, and get tied up with gangsta wannabe James Franco--whose dental appliances must be seen to be believed. Stylistically the film could be described as Drive meets To The Wonder; thematically, the film could be considered a satirical updating of Where The Boys Are, with Selena Gomez as the new Annette Funicello. The film is always visually interesting; Cliff Martinez on the soundtrack keeps everything "cool."

« : July 14, 2013, 10:40:41 AM dave jenkins »


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« #12246 : July 14, 2013, 07:21:23 AM »

For me, he has always been a bad guy expert. Or at least expert in playing morally ambivalent characters.

Charles Foster Kane may have been ambivalent. A Nazi is not.


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« #12247 : July 14, 2013, 08:41:07 PM »

The Anderson Tapes (1971) 5.5/10

All that beeping and screeching of the surveillance tapes made me nuts. Almost shut the movie off several times - I probably should have.
One great thing in this movie: Martin Balsam playing a flaming pansy. simply awesome. For that reason only, catch this movie the next time it plays on TCM.


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« #12248 : July 15, 2013, 12:57:39 AM »

Charles Foster Kane may have been ambivalent. A Nazi is not.
The Third Man

There he plays a fascinating monster. His best role outside his own films.


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« #12249 : July 15, 2013, 12:58:23 PM »

The Third Man

There he plays a fascinating monster. His best role outside his own films.

haven't seen it.

I think the only Welles roles I have seen outside his own movies, were the ones where he plays the lawyer for Leopold & Loeb, and the one where he plays that Turkish general. Forgot the name of those movies. (Truth is, he directed parts of those movies, too).


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« #12250 : July 15, 2013, 01:44:12 PM »

haven't seen it.
WHAT?

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« #12251 : July 16, 2013, 01:04:30 AM »

haven't seen it.

I think the only Welles roles I have seen outside his own movies, were the ones where he plays the lawyer for Leopold & Loeb, and the one where he plays that Turkish general. Forgot the name of those movies. (Truth is, he directed parts of those movies, too).

Then you don't know much about Welles.

And, actually, he plays in most of his own films often negative characters, or at least dubious ones.

Overall he was more a bad guy actor. The Third Man is probably despite Citizen Kane his most famous film. One of which many think that it was also directed by him.


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« #12252 : July 16, 2013, 05:11:22 AM »

PETE SMALLS IS DEAD  :o  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roz8qZdCmnU

a Film Noir   la Big Lebowski

 

« : July 18, 2013, 07:04:20 AM sargatanas »
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The glance that makes holes in the silver screen


« #12253 : July 16, 2013, 01:28:37 PM »

Singin' in the Rain (1952) - 8/10


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« #12254 : July 16, 2013, 03:39:36 PM »

Hammett (1982) Director: Wim Wenders Stars: Frederic Forrest, Peter Boyle, Marilu Henner a fictional story about Dashiell Hammett's post Pinkerton life as a writer combining some fact and lots of hard boiled fiction, great studio sets not bad upon first view. 7/10


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