Do women love Leone too

[caius]

well heres how it works:
(i can't really do this properly without the seven movies but i will look into it,)
there are a set seven movies (or stories) which will be like (hypothietically)
cinderella
romeo juliet
etc etc....

and any movie is built up of a combination of these movies.

i will look it up and get back to you

[caius]

i did some research and e-mailed a proffesor in something to do with movies and this is what he came up with, intresting but not quite it, i will come search some more though.


"Dear Caius,

Thanks for your question.  Yes, it is a common "truism" about literature and movies that there are only a few plots.  Unfortunately, I cannot recite for you the exact 7 (or whatever) plots that are often cited.  Sometimes the point is made another way: it is said that all movies are just combinations of other movies.  That would be misleading, in my view.  What is meant is that all movies conform to basic plot structures that are EXEMPLIFIED in various other ARCHETYPES of basic plots.  Romeo and Juliet is not a basic plot, but an example of a basic plot.

In my view "a basic plot" has a very simple structure and must be distinguished from "story" and "theme."

A basic plot, in my view mentions no character names, no specific times or locations, and no specific details to the plot. Hence, there are only a few basic plots such as:

1. Boy meets girl.  Boy is rejected by, or cannot get girl.. Boy gets girl in the end.

2. Hero confronts ethical dilemma.  Hero makes wrong choice.  Hero suffers. Hero corrects choice.  Hero is rewarded in end.

These are the "comic" (or  "happy," successful outcome) versions.  Reverse the outcome for tragedy.  That accounts for 4 basic plot structures.

Stories, on the other hand, e.g., Romeo and Juliet, are the SPECIFIC people, and settings in which the plots occur.  Specific stories will be, not basic plots, but examples of basic plots.

Themes are the issues the author deals with: e.g., love and fate, good vs. evil, how God relates to man, etc.

Aristotle lists SEVEN ELEMENTS that are constituents of drama.  These are not plots.  I will list them on my site, perhaps in the next few days.

There is one element that is ALWAYS a part of drama: moral choice.  See #5 under http://www.gis.net/~tbirch/amistakes.html

Another truism is this: all basic plots, as well as many examples of theme in story form, are found in the Bible.  Consider the film "The Matrix" and you will see what I mean.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Regards,

Tony Birch, Ph.D., MCSE"

[Il Buono]

[quote author=caius A basic plot, in my view mentions no character names, no specific times or locations, and no specific details to the plot. Hence, there are only a few basic plots such as:

1. Boy meets girl.  Boy is rejected by, or cannot get girl.. Boy gets girl in the end.

2. Hero confronts ethical dilemma.  Hero makes wrong choice.  Hero suffers. Hero corrects choice.  Hero is rewarded in end.

Actually the first one already is derived from the 'from zero to hero' basic plot.  
I do have at home the basic types of film genres, if that is what you're looking for.  I'll try to find it in my Hiroshima-room.  I'll get back on it.

[Il Buono]

sorry, I kinda messed up the quote-thing above.

[cigar joe]

Hiroshima Room? Now that is interesting.

[caius]

yeah what is it?

[Mannaja]

Shorty Larsen: I think James Woods said it best, he considered the opening scene of OUATITW to be like a Haiku-poem. I agree, it´s a marvellous scene, one of the best (if not THE best) opening scenes in cinema history.

[Il Buono]

yeah what is it?

It is a mess...  Like something exploded in there...

[caius]

Just got another e-mail from the proffesor apparently its six not seven. promise to update soon, its starting to get at my brain, like decartes i need this bloody knowledge

[shorty larsen]

James Woods said that about OUTW?

That's funny.

So he already knew Leone's work before shooting OUTA?

[caius]

Well i have failed in my quest to find what i want, but here is something about film theory for you cigar joe

ARISTOTLE'S SIX ELEMENTS of drama are Spectacle, Character, Fable (Plot), Diction, Melody, and Thought. These elements (slightly modified and re-interpreted for contemporary audiences) remain essential to modern films. Aristotle claims that, contrary to what one might expect, Plot or "the form of action" is the most important element. This is because, in Aristotle's view, the purpose of life "is a certain kind of activity" and drama ought to depict certain kinds of activity that we may learn the results of these forms of activities. Aristotle would reject the contemporary view (supported by insidious propaganda that acting is a high art form and by public fascination with the lives of actors) that the depiction of Character is central or most important. His argument: "Character gives us qualities, but it is in our actions -- what we do -- that we are happy or the reverse" (Poetics, 1450a18). "In a play accordingly they do not act in order to portray the Characters; they include the Characters for the sake of the action" (Poetics, 1461a15-20). He concludes that Character comes second (1450b1). It is important, however, to note that Character does interplay with the other elements, and (especially in films) it introduces morality. As Arisitotle says, "...character is what makes us ascribe certain moral qualities to the agents" (1450a4). Third is Thought, and this is not what the character says to reveal elements of the character, but what a character may say regarding important intellectual themes -- "all they say when proving or disproving some particular point, or enunciating some universal proposition." [In contemporary films it is sometimes asserted (with justification in some instances) that the director of the film actually controls "what is said or asserted," not through the dialogue, over which he has limited control, but through subliminal suggestion through the language of images alone. I reject, in part, this theory. See my Seven Mistakes.] Aristotle relegates the other elements to lesser importance in drama. A partial list of these elements, with examples, as they apply to contemporary films:

1. Plot: The Searchers (Horrible event befalls man, man chooses revenge, but finally chooses redemption and forgiveness).

Note: How plot relates to theme and what I call story is a complicated one. It has been argued, correctly, following Aristotle, that there are only few basic plots. If we state the plot of The Searchers as "man chooses revenge against INDIANS, we have a different, more specific understanding of the plot (a specific story). A basic plot and the story which enacts it introduces THEMES. In this case, the POSSIBILITY of forgiveness. These points aide, it remains as true today as in Aristotle's time -- and Hollywood writers generally accept it this -- that a good story (film) MUST have specific "plot points," or moments when the character makes a moral choice. By adhering to this rule, Hollywood writers can be said to accept Aristotle's idea that plot, rather than character, is central. Further complexities of this issue go beyond the scope of my comments here. See my Seven Mistakes and FAQs for more information.

2. Character: Lord of the Rings (Sam, a humble servant, is caught up in a titanic struggle).

3. Thought: "Life is a box of chocolates" (Forrest Gump).

4. Diction: Night of the Iguana, any Shakespeare.

5. Melody: Can be unnoticed (most films), or central to the impact of the Film, e.g., Theme from Star Wars.

6. Spectacle: Visual Impact, feeling of participating in large, grand events. Lord of the Rings, Ben Hur, Spartacus (Spartacus is an excellent example of a film in which all six elements are of high caliber.)

[Angel Eyes]

how can females like a film with " hardly any bloody talking in it"
uncultered heretics

[Il Buono]

these mythical opening what do you mean by them?  I have heard of a theory in cinema whereby there are only 7 types of film/story.  I can't remember all of them or even precisely any of them but i am pretty sure when i tested every possible film it always fitted in as one or a few mixed.  Correct me if i am wrong about the number 7, it maybe more or less (just)

I had a scenario course in the beginning of the year and there were 11 genres described in it.  I don't know if this is what you mean, but I'll give it a shot.

- Love story: subgenre buddy salvation (love>friendship)

- Horror: subgenre Horror with realistic terror/ irrational terror with ghost dimension

- Epical modern: the individual against the state

- Western

- War: pro-/anti-films (Sometimes used as an alibi for a love story)

- Maturing plot (e.g. Bambi)

- Redemption plot: protagonist goes from evil to good (e.g. Schindler's List)

- Punitive plot: good guy becomes bad guy and is punished (The treasure of Sierra Madre)

- Testing plot: the will of man is on the line (the old man and the sea, Forrest Gump)

- Educational plot: the arch goes over a deep change of the protagonist's view of life from negative to positive (Pinocchio)

- Disillusionment plot: a deep change from a positive point of view to a negative one.


This is a translation from the course, I hope I did well...

[cigar joe]

Thanks for the film theory and genre info, I never took any courses in this stuff.

[Il Buono]

 

If you want the rest, I can send it to you... if you can read Dutch...